Mastodawn

Rafa Font 🌻 🇪🇺 🏀Feb 20, 2024

1.1 million people living in #Romania declare themselves Hungarian. Why is this, and where are they?

In two Romanian regions, Hungarians are a majority (74 & 85% of the pop.)

They're in #Transylvania, in the middle of the #Carpathians. This mountain range divides the Romanian territory.

These Hungarian communities have lived here since this area was part of the Kingdom of Hungary

It’s not the only case. After WWI, #Hungary lost 2/3 of its former territory.

From: https://europeanperspective.substack.com/p/hungarians-in-the-carpathians-european

Hungarians in the Carpathians (European minorities, chapter 1)

The rearrangement of national borders after World War I still affects the identity feelings of the people living in the region today.

The European Perspective

https://europeanperspective.substack.com/p/hungarians-in-the-carpathians-european

Rafa Font 🌻 🇪🇺 🏀

How was it to grow as a Hungarian in #Romania? I talked with Gabor, 40, from #Transylvania

His grandparents never moved, they were born in #Hungary. But borders did, and that area is now Romania

As a kid, Gabor spoke better Romanian than his grandparents, who struggled to learn. However, the majority of the population of Transylvania has been Romanian since the 19th century

"As kids, we learned each other's language just by playing together. Sports clubs were mixed"

Hungarians in the Carpathians (European minorities, chapter 1)

The rearrangement of national borders after World War I still affects the identity feelings of the people living in the region today.

The European Perspective

Rafa Font 🌻 🇪🇺 🏀Feb 22, 2024

Romanians see #Transylvania very differently from Hungarians

105 y. ago, the modern Romanian state was created when Transylvania was added. A time for celebration!

But for #Hungary, the loss of this territory (and others) meant the end of the Kingdom: it's a time of mourning

Relations between the countries are still difficult. Since #Romania entered the EU in 2007 there haven't been bilateral talks

How can we explain the current conflict? We'll see tomorrow

Or here: https://europeanperspective.substack.com/p/hungarians-in-the-carpathians-european

Hungarians in the Carpathians (European minorities, chapter 1)

The rearrangement of national borders after World War I still affects the identity feelings of the people living in the region today.

The European Perspective

How to explain the conflict between #Hungary and #Romania about #Transylvania? As an *outsider*, I think of it as a cycle

1) Hungarian populations in Romania complain
Romanian law says that a minority above 20% is entitled to special language rights. This is not always implemented

2) Hungary intervenes.
It has a national plan to support Hungarians abroad. Hungary pursues "unification of the nation" (beyond borders). It funds churches, sports and media outlets for Hungarians outside Hungary. They issued passports for the Hungarian minority abroad, and with them, the right to vote.

At this moment, we have "a system in which Hungarians can live their life as it would be in Romania, but in Hungary" (quoted from researcher Tamás Kiss).

3) Romania gets suspicious
Romanian law is in favour of minorities. Some of the Hungarian-speaking venues are even funded by the Romanian state (e.g. the Hungarian theatre of Cluj). Isn't it sufficient?
Romania is concerned by the rhetoric of "unification of the Hungarian nation".

4) Way in for nationalism and populism

Hungarian players in the Romanian football league are insulted. The Romanian president once accused Hungary of wanting to reclaim Transylvania. From Hungary, they retorted: "we never said Transylvania was Romanian".

Politicians behaving undiplomatically create a snowball effect in society. This reinforces step 1: Hungarians complain that their situation is not good.

==
Do you have a direct experience of this, as a Romanian, Hungarian, or visitor to the area? I'd love to know about your experience.

How it is to be a Hungarian living in Slovakia? I talked with Miklós Krivánsky, Hungarian from Košice (Slovakia) to find out

8% of the Slovakian population are Hungarian. In some border cities, over 50%. But numbers are declining

Miklós: "Those who go to study or work in #Hungary never come back"

Also (edited: describing the identity dynamics): "Kids born from Hungarian-Slovak mixed families in #Slovakia might feel more Slovak than Hungarian"

https://europeanperspective.substack.com/p/hungarians-in-the-carpathians-european

In #Slovakia, it's possible to attend Hungarian-speaking primary and high schools.

There's even one University: J. Selye University (SELYE JÁNOS EGYETEM), offering degrees in Teacher Education, Economics, and Theology.

Hungarians in Slovakia would like to have more independence when it comes to organise education and culture. We're entering now into politics (let's continue tomorrow).

Or you can read the full article at The European Perspective:

#Hungary

Hungarians in the Carpathians (European minorities, chapter 1)

The rearrangement of national borders after World War I still affects the identity feelings of the people living in the region today.

The European Perspective

"Autonomy" means something different in Spain (having certain powers) than in #Slovakia (a region has a plan for its future independence)

This is due to Slovakia's history

(Removed, see next post:"The country itself became autonomous before parting ways with Czechia")

Why is this relevant? #Hungarians living in Southern Slovakia would like "autonomy" over the territories where they are a majority

But they can't say "#autonomy", so they use the word "self-government" instead

#selfgovernment

Is there any self-governed territory that would be a good example?

Miklós Krivánsky: “Not South Tyrol, that would be too much for what Slovakia might concede. But look at Valle d’Aosta. Something similar could work”

Valle d’Aosta is bilingual, French and Italian. It keeps 90% of the taxes it raises. It’s independent of Rome in many topics: tourism (its main source of revenue), water resources, and urban planning

Could #ValledAosta be a good reference for self-governed regions in Europe?

Hungarian minority in #Ukraine: Just 150.000, but issues have implications in the larger political setup

Let's talk nationality and language

Ukraine doesn't recognise dual citizenship. #Hungary has issued passports to their minority. Result: tensions between the countries

Also, delicate situations for individuals

Did you know that a Ukrainian sits in the #EuropeanParliament? Andrea Bocskor, who vows to represent Hungarians living in Ukraine.

There might be a way forward: President Zelenskyy announced the upcoming introduction of multiple citizenship. This is aimed at Ukrainians living abroad, but it could benefit as well Hungarians at home.

About language: Ukraine, since 2017, wants to reduce the use of Russian, and mandates Ukrainian-only teaching from 5th school year. Hungarian was caught in the crossfire.

This aspect is a problem for Ukraine joining EU According to the accession rules, it has to be reversed.

#Ukraine is progressing, in 2020 a law was passed to gradually increase school time taught in Ukrainian, arriving at 60% in 12th year (leaving therefore space for other languages)

#Hungary takes a very strong stance on these issues, even mentioning the word "oppression", and it threatens to block #Ukraine's path to the EU on these grounds

That's why it's good to know the details of this!

Rafa Font 🌻 🇪🇺 🏀Feb 29, 2024

Francisco's parents emigrated after World War II. They didn’t know each other in #Hungary: they met in Santiago de Chile

They were at risk in post-WW2 Hungary. His father had been condemned by a popular jury

When Francisco asked for the nationality, he discovered that his parents had actually lost it, because they had been born in territories outside the post WW1 Hungarian borders. He eventually got it, proving he could speak the language (which is not a minor feat)

Rafa Font 🌻 🇪🇺 🏀Feb 29, 2024

Francisco's feelings about Hungary are unaffected by the tensions between Hungary and its neighbours, because of the distance

I have a similar feeling after having written this piece. I entered it with the angle of "minorities", "migration feelings", and I have found it deeply interlinked with regional politics and tensions

Writing it has been a bit of a ride, and a learning experience, and it continues to be while I promote it in social networks

Thanks for reading. See you in the next issue!

Hans Zauner Feb 28, 2024

@rafa_font

"...threatens to block Ukraine's path to the EU on these grounds". That's unfortunate, as EU membership is the best hope to defuse these tensions - as e.g. the German-speaking region in Northern Italy (Alto Adige/Südtirol) shows.

Thanks to the "four freedoms" of the EU and the Schengen agreement, the border between Austria and Italy just lost significance. Südtirol is today a prosperous Italian region, actually benefiting from its bi-cultural identity.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0888325420953490

Why do Slovaks see "autonomy" as meaning "having a plan for independence"?

Here is my source:
Looking to the Past to Survive the Future: The Hungarian Minority in Slovakia by Susan Divald March 25, 2021

@rafa_font
Wrong. #slovakia was a republic in federation with Czech Republic. We were - and are - a sovereign country, not a former autonomous territory.
We are in EU, and in Schengen. I don't want to sound like a rabid nationalist, but if someone doesn't like to live in Slovakia, they can go to Hungary or anywhere else. Simple solution. It's about time people stop dreaming their wet dreams about pre-Trianon #hungary .
It's not gonna happen..
But it can lead to another useless bloodshed like in #ukraine .

@rsmedia Thanks for the comment and correction. I understand that the concern is with "Slovakia became autonomous before parting ways... " I would like to find the right wording

Taking from Wikipedia some sentences, they also mention autonomy.

"By 1992, Slovak calls for greater autonomy..."

"Movement for a Democratic Slovakia emerged as the leading party... , basing its appeal on fairness to Slovak demands for autonomy."

I might just delete the sentence. I'm also rechecking my sources

@rsmedia About the other topic you mentioned

I talked with a Hungarian from Kosice. I understand he would like to keep on living where he was born. He is not nostalgic, doesn't support Hungary's government

I understand this is a sensitive issue and I might be missing local aspects of the debate. Having said this, I have the impression that this person was advocating for higher levels of self-government, and not anything else.

Because you're right re: pre Trianon is not going to happen.

@rafa_font
My argument is this. I, for one, thinks about the level of freedom I can have in a particular territory, rather than insisting on language etc... Imagine British Pakistanis or Hindus demanding "greater autonomy" from the UK government, how far would they go.
You mention, "I talked with a Hungarian from Kosice. I understand he would like to keep on living where he was born. He is not nostalgic, doesn't support Hungary's government."
Well, nobody is forcing him out. You won't get beaten because you speak Hungarian. So, what does he want #autonomy for?
They want more #selfgovernment . Let's not forget, they were on the losing side in WW2. They just can't dictate their conditions or demand anything. It is, what it is...
But living in Slovakia one would assume learning the majority language. That's actually kinda mandatory.

@rsmedia

I mostly agree about learning Slovak when you're living in Slovakia (I have a different opinion about Brussels, but that's another story)

What does the Hungarian minority in Slovakia want more autonomy for? From what I gather:
- To combat population decrease
- To control funds and policy around culture and education. E.g., more funding to Hungarian-speaking education
- This is in Slovak regions with a majority of Hungarians, so I guess there's also a "us" vs "them" component

@rsmedia The WW2 argument. Should it still apply today? People living there today were not present then. The way I frame the argument today is not as a discussion among states (as in the WW2 setup) but rather as a matter of ethnic minorities.

Regarding minorities in the UK. I don't think they are a relative majority in any district. If they were, I would not be surprised to see emerge similar demands.

@rafa_font
WW2 argument...how many people alive today remember #trianon treaty? Probably very few, if anyone at all. But Hungarians still feel very strongly about it.
How many of them remember Austro-Hungarian empire? No one. Yet they still print maps of Hungary of pre-Trianon borders.
Matter of ethnic minorities is an interesting question, as it brings the question of #selfdetermination into our discussion. And to consider it means to reject it. Apart from #ruthenian and #Roma gypsy minorities, there is no one with a right to claim the right for self-determination.
I left Slovakia in 2005 for almost 19 years, because I didn't like quite a few things I couldn't change. But I alone am responsible for my well-being, therefore I lived in a country, where life has been a bit better.
We are in #Schengen . If one doesn't like in one country due to some politics, they can leave.
But Hungarian #selfgovernment in Slovakia won't happen. History teaches us.

@rsmedia I'd like to underline the wording you have used here: "Hungarian self government in Slovakia". Put like this, I see it would be difficult to convince Slovakia to grant it.

With a different spin, the mention could be to "self government *of a region*". That would make it more palatable (I assume!) and it would probably elicit more international support (it would look like other regions).

@rafa_font
Nope. This would be just a camouflage tactics, which, basically would mean something which would not pass in the open. Basically a nefarious plan.
There are regions associated with minorities. So, if one would mention, say, Šariš region, you might think of possible Ruthenian self-government (although they are far from dominant ethnic there).
But if one mentions self-government in relation with Žitný ostrov, we're talking Hungarian autonomy.
Some things are really simple.
But going in circle - Hungarian ethnic minority does have their MPs, their local administration, they got money for cultural activities, they can study in their own language.
I guess Shengen agreement was aimed to slowly abolish national borders, insisting on #autonomy in that regard is so 19th century.

@rafa_font
Plus - the country borders are immutable. In all respect, you are trying to justify the ongoing separatist tendencies of Hungarian nationalists in Slovakia. They don't want #culturalautonomy . They want the total #autonomy to be able to reconnect with the Hungary.
And while they mask their intentions here in Slovakia, they talk about it quite openly in Hungary.
So, should we just give a piece of our country to them? How about northern parts once occupied by Poland? They certainly wouldn't mind....

@rsmedia Before assigning intentions to my words (whether I try to justify some tendencies or others), please consider my background.

I'm Spanish. We have 17 autonomous regions plus 2 autonomous cities. Even in Medieval times, under Muslim rule, it was fragmented in taifas. Then, Christian kingdoms came, fragmented as well. The country is full of mountains (which generates divisions). Discussions about competencies of autonomous regions are our daily bread in the news.

@rsmedia I live in Italy. Here, Val d'Aosta, a fully mountainous region, has a lot of autonomy. Also, Trentino-Alto Adige, also, the islands, Sicily and Sardinia, they all have special autonomous considerations.

The geography and political setup and borders of the places where I have been raised and where I live are completely different from those in the Carpathian basin.

It seems that when I say "self-government", I don't have the same fears of secession or distrust that you do.

Veza85UE Feb 28, 2024

@rafa_font @rsmedia And that's perfectly normal, of course you're coming from a different place. But that's why those examples don't work. The discourse in Sicily isn't dominated by a rump Norman* state feeding its population a steady diet of post-imperial nostalgia and blood and soil ethnonationalism, Macron doesn't have a map of France in 1811 in his office and Austria isn't constantly harping about Italy not being real and muh lost territories.
*or any of Sicily's many, many previous masters

@Veza85UE

Exactly.

@rafa_font

As the other debater pointed out - autonomous regions in Spain or Italy are full of Spanish people or Italians...and last time I've checked Basque attempts for autonomy are still not welcomed warmly by the Spanish government, neither are the Catalonia's attempts.
So, the comparison doesn't really work in this case.
And in Slovakia we do have also local governments apart from the central one, they can use #eu fundings for projects etc...

@Veza85UE

@rafa_font

However, for Hungarians it was always about the land and the territorial autonomy. Which, based on lessons from history, will hardly evrr be granted.

@rafa_font
Sorry, not trying to assign intentions (at least not intentionally).

@rafa_font
And before I forget - thanks for an intelligent and interesting conversation.

@rsmedia Same! I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me :)

Vihorlat Media Feb 26, 2024

@rafa_font
I am of Hungarian ancestry myself (both grandfathers were Hungarian), but what's wrong to feel more Slovak than Hungarian, considering one lives in #slovakia ?

@rsmedia Thanks for your comment! I guess there's nothing wrong, I don't think there was any judgement in the words that I'm quoting, just an explanation of the dynamics of the identity.

Where there might be an opinion is about the depopulation of certain areas of Hungary majority, but that's about the population, not the identity.

Would you have an opinion on the larger article?

Vihorlat Media Feb 26, 2024

@rafa_font
From Hungarain viewpoint it's always complaining about past wrongdoing, in this case - of course - Trianon treaty.
Look at my identity problem. I am of Hungarian, German, Slovak and Ruthenian ancestry. I speak 4 Slovak, Czech, Polish and English.
What's my identity? I see myself as #european first and foremost. I'd like to be viewed as a good person, and that's about it.
The insistence upon the national identity was - and still is, IMHO - the root of many problems.
And the last thing...I firmly believe every citizen of any state should be able to communicate in the majority language. The complete education in minority language might be OK for nationalist politicians, in the end it hurt the same minorities.

@rsmedia That European identity is also the one I want for my kids: Spanish and Portuguese, born in Belgium and Italy, living in Italy, speaking ESP, POR, ITA and English. That's a sort of identity that is bigger than nations, and could help alleviate conflicts like the one in the Carpathians.

Let me also note: that's not the "standard" European identity, the "united in diversity" one. That one is my parents' identity: Spanish, speaking only Spanish, but European because Spain is in Europe.

@rsmedia But the European identities are (not more and not less than) other identities. They don't appear out of nowhere, they are based on personal situations and feelings. Some people might have them, some other less so.

I consider that these "European identities" are "identities" as well as the "just Hungarian" is.

And I hope that the socio cultural Europe is increasingly built upon them.

Veza85UE Feb 23, 2024

@rafa_font Orbán doesn't behave "undiplomatically", he full on spews out irredentist propaganda towards all neighbours, not just Romania, feeding failed empire nostalgia in an impoverished country he robbed blind.

@Veza85UE On the draft, I received 2 pieces of feedback

- That I was being too soft with Orbán, downplaying his intentions.

- That calling Hungarian policy "irredentist" was incorrect: there was no intention to alter borders

Then, I checked the official policy. Found: "unite the nation (despite the borders)". I find it ambiguous and provocative, while conveying a real feeling of (part of?) the population: "unite all Hungarians"

Haven't fully addressed your comment, though. What do you think?

Veza85UE Feb 24, 2024

@rafa_font I'm honestly no expert, but it's enough to see how he's been treating one neighbour (Ukraine) to understand what role his post-imperial nostalgia politics play in his kleptocracy. It's grift all the way down which is the angle under which I agree with criticism no.1. Of course, his problem re: no. 2 is that even if it were more than pure LARP, his cronyism and corruption have led to most EU neighbours leapfrogging Hungary in wealth and standing in the EU.

Veza85UE Feb 24, 2024

@rafa_font His once poorer (MUCH poorer in Romania's case) neighbours now laugh at him. He's going to change borders? Him and whose army? His wealthier neighbours have not only better economies but also powerful friends, some of whom have troops stationed nearby. They're at the table, while Orbán goes for potty breaks.

His impotent sabre-rattling for domestic consumption isn't all that impressive seen from abroad, is what I'm saying, though it's toxic in its own right for Hungary itself.

@Veza85UE Thanks!

He's not going to change borders. But that's not his goal, I think.

I see the following:

- A real feeling of unity among Hungarians across borders (my focus in the article)

- Using it, Orbán trolls the neighbours with words like "unite the nation". And his neighbours are biting the bait! (not my focus, just scratched it)

- But, it's not about really changing the borders (so, it's "incorrect" to accuse them of irredentism). It's for "domestic consumption" as you mention.

@Veza85UE About Ukraine: continuously, Orbán makes it difficult for the EU to unanimously support Ukraine.

Many times, the excuse is "how Ukraine treats the Hungarian minority".

There might be cases in which this mistreatment happens. I think we (as EU citizens) should be aware of this, know the reality of the Hungarian minorities, be sure there's no mistreatment, and thus remove this excuse for Hungary not to support Ukraine.

@Veza85UE An anecdote about this that I came across the other day reading "The Counteroffensive" by Tim Mak.

It's about comedians in Kyiv making fun of Zakaparttia:
https://www.counteroffensive.news/p/we-could-all-use-a-laugh

There are two jokes about the area. I see them with a different perspective since knowing about the topic on more depth.

We could all use a laugh

The dark art of comedy in wartime Ukraine: what was funny and isn’t anymore? Once serious but now hilarious? In reporter’s notebook: Oksana mulls over a statue for an executed Ukrainian soldier.

The Counteroffensive with Tim Mak

@rafa_font Thanks, that's a surprisingly interesting article for someone like me who can't stand stand-up. Ukraine is a candidate for EU accession, therefore undergoing the same process current EU members in the area did regarding minority rights. Romania manages to negotiate this topic with Ukraine without licking the Kremlin boot. I'd be wary of giving Hungarians a special totem in this respect because of "unity feels" across borders. That discourse doesn't appear organically, it has history.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Ditr%C4%83u_xenophobic_incident

@rafa_font Do the warm fuzzies uwu "unity" apply to my Hungarian friends in Belgium, Spain or Sweden who've had to flee a country Orban's made unlivable for them or is it reserved for his votes-for-passports (of what is now a poorer country than the one they live in) scheme for these types:

tldr: I reject the notion that blood and soil ethnonationalism is somehow respectable because of the blood and soil ethnonationalists' "feelings".

2020 Ditrău xenophobic incident - Wikipedia

@Veza85UE In the research that led to the article I gathered info from 5 Hungarians, 3 of which living outside Hungary. This might well be a small and biased sample (due to the limitations of my own reporting capabilities).

Do you think we could gather the point of view of your Hungarian friends about my article? It would be very valuable feedback.

@rafa_font I can ask, though I know already that the 1 in Spain is unlikely to respond tbh. But we'll see what the Brussels-based friend thinks.
(They're not a diverse sample tbh, one's gay and fled after the police refused to do anything about the thugs who tried to murder him, not particularly enclined to nationalism and "unity".)
Is there any Mastodon instance/group where you might find some interested readers closer to the topic?

@rafa_font OK, but "he doesn't really mean it mostly because he can't do shit about it" doesn't mean that his Greater Hungary map bs is any less irredentist or acceptable in the EU towards EU neighbours.