InfraredAces ♠️Aug 8, 2023
As if I didn’t already have enough reticence regarding fgcOS, Arturo defending Gootecks’ personal beliefs and political views (aka antivax, Q anon conspiracy, inciting right wing violence at the capitol) make me even less inclined to wanting its widespread adoption.
Show threadT5F TiZ

Since nobody’s saying it, I’m gonna.

“FGC OS” is just Windows, so it’s still gonna suck ass in the same way Windows sucks ass!! He’s not doing anything special. He’s just debloating the same piece of shit that will still turn to mush if a controller even looks at it funny.

The answer is Linux. I have been using Linux to run games at my local for the past several years. Controllers plug in and simply work. My scene uses Steam Decks for multiple games, most commonly Strive, Tekken, and Calibur. It works great! If they ever drop SteamOS 3.5, Streets 6 frame pacing will improve to where it will be more viable than PS4s.

Art is just selling snake oil to people who don’t know better and/or refuse to consider the Penguin with the legitimacy it deserves due to decades of social conditioning against it.

Aug 9, 2023 at 2:37pmWeb
Show threadDemonicaAug 9, 2023
@tiz
While I am a big Linux shill, Shader Cache studder suuuucks
@InfraredAces
Show threadT5F TiZAug 9, 2023

Agreed. But it’s not a Linux exclusive problem; this happens on some Windows setups for some games as well. That said, we have a few ways to subvert it:

  • The game can warm up shaders ahead of time; Street Fighter 6 does this.
  • Fossilize allows shader caches to be shared between PCs with matching GPU setups, which greatly benefits Steam Deck.
  • There is a Vulkan extension called Graphics Pipeline Library that asynchronously compiles shaders. Proton and its components are already ready to take advantage of it if the extension is present. For AMD Linux drivers, that’s in Mesa 23.1. SteamOS 3.5 includes Mesa 23.1.3, and it’s one fix out of several that greatly improves game feel.
Show threadInfraredAces ♠️Aug 9, 2023
I wonder if it’s just my setup, but when I turned on this option, I was just stuck on that “preparing shaders” screen for more than 2 hours. I just stopped at that point and now I think that I have to edit the .ini file to get it to stop trying to prep those shaders before launching
Show threadT5F TiZAug 9, 2023

Between this and your remarks elsewhere regarding texture artifacting and crashes on other games, I’m wondering if something is goofed up on your setup. 🙁

Are you one of those “Never Flatpak” folks? If not, you could try installing Steam through Flatpak and seeing if the more stable userland provided by FD.O’s runtime creates some more favorable conditions.

Show threadResident StevilAug 9, 2023
Trying to 'debloat' Windows 10/11 for the purposes of gaming is simply a bad idea to begin with because it removes several security features and patches from Windows that a person would need if they were to use said PC to go online.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctONKQByx-M
Watch this video before using Atlas OS Windows

YouTube
Show threadInfraredAces ♠️Aug 9, 2023
But isn’t that not the usecase? If you’re using it for offline tournaments or have a separate partition for this Windows installation, is the loss of security features relevant?
Show threadResident StevilAug 9, 2023
But games have to download new balance patches/updates/characters all the time. So it's pretty much unavoidable.
Show threadInfraredAces ♠️Aug 9, 2023
As purported by the people working on fgcOS, those security features are toggleable and can be turned on when not gaming and are just performing updates. So that’s not that big a concern if that is properly implemented.
Show threadResident StevilAug 9, 2023
That seems like way too much of a hassle for a TO to have to go through several PCs, install fgcOS, install the games, turning on the security features, applying the updates, shutting them off again just to eliminate 4-5 frames of input lag. I'm sure there are other less tedious ways to efficiently run an offline tournament on PCs without sacrificing security features.

EDIT: That's also not mentioning someone could also potentially mess with said PCs offline as well that those security features could also protect against.
Show threadInfraredAces ♠️Aug 9, 2023

a large scale, standardized set of hardware and software, easy to maintain and running at an acceptable performance level while remaining relatively inexpensive… where have I seen that before…

Show threadInfraredAces ♠️Aug 9, 2023
Like I said before in other posts and replies, even if it does do everything it purports to, people need to confirm that the juice is worth the squeeze.
Show threadMissingno.Aug 9, 2023

@tiz @InfraredAces I always hoped that Steam Deck could be adopted as the ultimate cheap portable setup for locals and poverty events. Don’t even need a monitor!

Originally I’d hoped the Switch could be that, but of course it was never going to be adopted when PS4 was already entrenched.

Show threadInfraredAces ♠️Aug 9, 2023
That is not a thing I was expecting someone to say… Switch takeover as a tournament viable setup? Is the Switch capable of that?
Show threadMissingno.Aug 9, 2023

@InfraredAces @tiz Only caveat is that the stock dock covers the screen, but there are third-party docks that don’t.

Well, that and the fact that it didn’t get very many good ports…

Show threadMathias Wolfbrok on FGC NetworkAug 9, 2023

@InfraredAces @missingno @tiz I mean Smash does it, even has the physical locks for it, so it would be possible for the few FGs Switch has… Assuming they’re up to date and run at a constant 60, so that kinda limits us to, like, Power Rangers, FEXL:AD, Them’s Fightin’ Herds and Skullgirls right now

It would however be a good excuse to start pushing ARMS and Pokken again (Granted you still need two Switches by setup for these)

Show threadMathias Wolfbrok on FGC NetworkAug 9, 2023
If anything the biggest problem with Switch at this point are the controllers turning on every time you even look at them funny, I don’t know whay the one guy R&Ding Wiimotes thought making every button into the “On” button was a good idea… And yet they kept that idea for 15+ years
Show threadT5F TiZAug 9, 2023

Okay, pump the brakes. “Is the Switch capable of that?” The answer is “hell no”, full stop. Switch is not viable as an FGC standard. A lot of the games we play are entirely absent because they would not run well. The Switch was underpowered when it came out, and it’s even worse now. Not to mention that you can’t get it to pay attention to third-party controllers unless you softmod it or get an adapter.

The Steam Deck is viable as an FGC standard. All of our games do run on it. They all have a way to push a continuous, steady 60. It accepts all controllers as long as they have USB-A or bluetooth. And it runs Switch games too, if we really want to get into those weeds.

Show threadResident StevilAug 9, 2023
Are you basing this claim on facts or assumptions?
Show threadT5F TiZAug 9, 2023
What the hell kind of question is this? Facts, of course. All of the statements I made are verifiable. Is there a specific claim you take objection to?
Show threadResident StevilAug 9, 2023
Well it occurs to me that the whole "Switch is underpowered" meme has permeated its way into becoming fact when the console is capable of quite a lot in terms of performance, maybe not at the PS5/XSX level, but if the Switch wasn't capable of running these fighting games, they wouldn't been made for the console in the first place. I'm not saying that every console should be replaced with a Switch, but it seems like specious reasoning to me to say that the Switch isn't viable when it hasn't actually been used in a tournament environment.
Show threadT5F TiZAug 9, 2023

The meme did not “become a fact”, the meme exists because it already is a fact. You can look up the specs for the Switch and see for yourself, starting with one big one: The Switch has only 4GB of RAM. Every PS4-generation game requires an absolute minimum of 8GB. The Deck has 16GB. Here’s another one: the Switch’s 4 ARM CPU cores only go to 1.02Ghz, and they don’t have hyperthreading. The Deck’s 4 x86_64 CPU cores have two threads a piece and go up to 3.5Ghz.

if the Switch wasn’t capable of running these fighting games, they wouldn’t been made for the console in the first place

What do you mean, if??? A wide variety of PS4-generation games are completely absent. Do you see Tekken 7 on the Switch? Street Fighter V? What about Guilty Gear Strive? SoulCalibur VI? King of Fighters XV? What about even Xrd? SF4? Tekken Tag 2? Even PS3-generation games are absent. And obviously, you can completely forget about Street Fighter 6 and Tekken 8. I think NRS is insane for wanting to target Switch for MK1 while also targeting the current-gen consoles. There’s no way they will stick to it.

It hasn’t been used in a tournament environment because the games people want to play are not on it. Meanwhile, outside of Smash, every other game that is on it is also on a more powerful console. You can’t make a console the standard when it just doesn’t have the games. And it doesn’t have the games because the Switch is weak. That is the bottom line.

Show threadlulolwenAug 9, 2023

@tiz I don't agree on the reason for not having PS3-generation ports: to me, the financial incentive just isn't there. Engines older than ~2005 or so are comparatively simpler, reducing cost-to-port, and older games tend to be out of print building demand over time, so "retro" ports are more likely to turn profit. Given that SF4 only uses ~300MB RAM and can simulate @ 300FPS on a single core of a modern PC, I'm pretty sure the Switch could run it.

Hard agree on everything newer than like ~2013.

Show threadMathias Wolfbrok on FGC NetworkAug 9, 2023

Honnestly this is why I’d argue Xbox 360 backwards compatibility for the One and Series was the best thing Microsoft did last gen, the risk-return ratio on releases or rereleases does diminish a lot when the platform holder’s providing the emulator (Plus it’s “free” good PR, see Red Dead Redemption)

Now if only they applied that to 3rd Strike Online instead of Capcom releasing their piss poor 30th Anniversary collection

Show threadlulolwenAug 9, 2023

@MathiasWolfbrok @tiz 1000% this.

SF4 is still playable in the MS ecosystem 100% due to MS's efforts to preserve BC, both on Windows and on Xbox. SF4 is still playable in the Sony ecosystem is because Sony paid for the PS4 port of SF4, and then PS4-on-PS5 BC preserved it into the current generation.

Nintendo missed on all of this- the Wii couldn't run it and the Wii U sold terribly, so there's no BC leverage (or even a shared API!). It'd be a totally fresh port, which is a hard sell.

Show threadlulolwenAug 9, 2023

@MathiasWolfbrok @tiz Let's say a hypothetical SF4 port on the switch would sell for $25, because that's what it's currently selling for on PSN: even if it sold 50,000 copies over its lifetime, that's just over 1 mil USD. That's like, 10 people's salaries for a year- it'd barely break even.

That's even assuming it'd sell 50000 copies, which is bold given that it's $4 on Steam on a regular basis and the market for the game is already heavily saturated because it never went out of print.

Show threadMathias Wolfbrok on FGC NetworkAug 9, 2023

I mean 50k for a popular nostalgia bait game on a mass market handheld seems reasonable (Remember, comparatively the Deck and its handheld PC pals aren’t mass market) Not worth, but reasonable

I don’t however see KOFXIII reaching that number

Show threadlulolwenAug 9, 2023

@MathiasWolfbrok @tiz SF4 never reached the level of commercial inaccessibility that games like 3rd Strike or Marvel 2 did during the 2000s (Dreamcast bless), nor does it "look old" in the sense that it has janky polygons or spritework, so I hesitate to say it'd sell on nostalgia- SF4 still "feels modern" in a way that many games don't.

Put another way, SF4 feels more modern today than SFEX felt when SF4 came out, and SFEX and SF4 are closer than SF4 and SF6.

Show threadMathias Wolfbrok on FGC NetworkAug 9, 2023

@lulolwen @tiz TBF I think there could be a whole debate as to what is nostalgia/modernity and how much that feeling gets amplified by the “handheld factor” but I think that’s a conversation for another time

I’m pretty sure a lot of the copies for Tekken 5 DR and Tekken 6 on the PSP were sold on the premise of “Wow, Tekken on a portable”

Show threadT5F TiZAug 9, 2023
I think SF4 owes this to having fairly good models and a very distinct art style. And those are the two things you need most to make a game that looks good on Switch anyways. Like, it’s not like people don’t make good looking games on Switch; they just lean on art style, because that makes it much easier to cut corners for performance than if a game is realistic or otherwise indistinct.
Show threadphi1997Aug 10, 2023
@lulolwen
SSF4 was on 3DS. USF4 absolutely could run on Switch
@tiz
Show threadMathias Wolfbrok on FGC NetworkAug 9, 2023

Yes the Switch doesn’t have and won’t have the main games we play on it, and neither will Switch 2, that much is clear and I think is understood by most. Nintendo consoles will never be standard, and the most standard they’ve ever been was for Tatsunoko VS Capcom

That being said Switch is in a very odd place with what it does have. For some reason it has technically the most feature-rich version of DBFZ with the 3v3 local mode, for some reason SamSho’s online there works better than the PS4 version (At this time) and for some reason Smash’s online works worse than its Wii U counterpart. And I wold argue as strictly a TO platform it’s not half bad, especially compared to PS4. I don’t bloody know what the Switch is at this point, but at least what it does do I feel it does well. But I really don’t know what the Switch is at this point.

So in short, would the couple of games that are decent on Switch be runnable on Switch and maybe even benefit from it in some places? Yes. Is it gonna happen? F*ck no, we have 10 years worth of PS4s in storage which can do everything else, why bother borrowing Switches from the Smash community

Show threadphi1997Aug 10, 2023
@MathiasWolfbrok
As well as Type Lumina, AC+R, FighterZ, UNI[cl-r], and others.
@InfraredAces @missingno @tiz
Show threadMathias Wolfbrok on FGC NetworkAug 10, 2023

@phi1997 @InfraredAces @missingno @tiz Well DBFZ drops frames, ACPR isn’t up to date and I’ve heard UNICLR has a lot of input lag, hence why I didn’t include those

(On a side note Type Lumina on Xbox Series runs amazingly well according to our MBTL players)

Show threadToast RiderAug 10, 2023
@MathiasWolfbrok @missingno @InfraredAces @phi1997 @tiz this whole debate would be easily solved if everyone just adopted FEXL AD as their main game
Show threadEinAstonAug 10, 2023
YES. Everyone should play the EX games
Show threadphi1997Aug 10, 2023
@MathiasWolfbrok
I'm pretty sure the only thing the Switch version of AC+R is missing is rollback, and while that's catastrophic for netplay, it is irrelevant for local tournament setups.
@InfraredAces @missingno @tiz
Show threadMathias Wolfbrok on FGC NetworkAug 10, 2023
@phi1997 @InfraredAces @missingno @tiz It’s also missing the buffer update for 360 motions and the likes, which is way more problematic IMO
Show threadphi1997Aug 10, 2023
@MathiasWolfbrok
Gotcha, wasn't aware of that one
@InfraredAces @missingno @tiz
Show threadInfraredAces ♠️Aug 9, 2023
It’s funny that you say this as I cannot run SF6 on my EndeavourOS machine without extreme texture artifacting, if it runs at all, and games like xrd and bbcf will, at times simply just crash.
Show threadMathias Wolfbrok on FGC NetworkAug 9, 2023
@tiz @InfraredAces I was about to say, one of my ideas was to try and build a PC with ChimeraOS on it and see if it works at some point
Show threadAthenyaAug 9, 2023
The moment nya saw him talk about SF6 having a "High frame render time" nya immediately knew what kind of snake oil he was selling.
Show threadT5F TiZAug 9, 2023

Ehhh… the “high frame render time” is sus, but not for the reason you think it is.

Frame times are actually a real thing. For 60FPS, you want each frame to render in 16.7ms or less, and many performance overlays will show you frame times in conjunction with FPS. However, for games that are locked to 60FPS, they’re going to spend part of that 16.7ms just… waiting, and the frame times that these performance overlays get don’t account for that. You only see real frametimes if Vsync is off and framerate is unlimited. That means the application will just submit frames as soon as they are complete and immediately move on to the next, and you’ll be able to see how long it actually takes to render a frame.

Art’s statement is weird because SF6 only has a few places where you can see true frame times: the menus, the VS screen, battle hub, and world tour outside of battle. And all of those situations are very different rendering conditions from actual battles. In actual battles, you are locked to 60FPS, regardless of VSync status. You won’t get to see how much of its 16.7ms budget it actually needs to render a frame. Your only clues are GPU and CPU utilization. There are ways he can make estimates, but that’s all he can do.

Show threadAthenyaAug 9, 2023
Oh so nya know what it means, it's just both the mix of calling it specifically frame render time, but also just that eh saying a game has a "high frame render time" doesn't really say much more than just it's performance heavy, since it's just a different way to represent performance like FPS is.

So any game running at 60 fps is gonna have frame-time of roughly 16,8 ms and a game running at 120 fps is gonna have a frame time of roughly 8,4 etc. Unless the frame pacing is completely off.