Bob-o McNabb
Qagggy 
2008 v. 2023: I don’t think people realize the extent to which parked cars degrade public space.
Philip Weiss (Phil in SF)@qag You're back!!!
@kingrat My crossposter is still dead but I’m hanging around with time to kill (a rare occurrence) so I thought I would do it manually.
Andres@qag It's funny because if you showed most people pictures of front lawns (or back yards) with with cars up on blocks, they'd be like "omg eyesore" but if you show them a typical american street with cars parallel-parked on it, they'd be like "oh that's normal"
@Andres4NY Cars ruin everything. Most notably our brains.
EvilGinger- Queen of Naps@qag @Andres4NY
As a disabled person who sometimes needs to use a wheelchair to get around- no car means I can't get anywhere with steep hills, or miles from my home. I can't ride a bike, or walk long distances with my cane on good days- I need a car to get to the store or the doctor's office or to a concert or gathering.
I do agree that there are far too many cars and trucks and even motorcycles on many of our roads. But some of us do *need* them to be able to get to necessary services and resources. My doc isn't going to send someone to push me 10 miles to her office and then home again. But good sidewalks and bicycle/wheelchair/scooter spaces are needed, and fewer cars and trucks on the roads overall.
SomeAnoTooter@EvilGinger013 @qag @Andres4NY are you sure you need a car for that? You yourself talked about using a wheelchair. That's not a car. Yes you need a vehicle, but it doesn't need a big wide street that is for fast moving SUVs, especially in towns. No majority wants a future without cars (maybe only in a utopia where trains and buses travel everywhere), but we can all be satisfied without big streets for big cars in our towns. There certainly are already vehicles that can get along in bikelanes.
@SomeAnoTooter @qag @Andres4NY Did you read what I wrote at all?
Yes- I need a car to get to places miles away from my home, whether I am in my wheelchair or using my cane. I do not have a motorized wheelchair- those things are expensive as all get out- expensive to buy, expensive to repair. I can't push myself 10 miles down a highway to get to my doctors' suburban or city offices. I can't park 2 miles away and push myself or walk up steep hills to get there either.
But I also said "But good sidewalks and bicycle/wheelchair/scooter spaces are needed, and fewer cars and trucks on the roads overall.". If the spaces I need to get to have good sidewalks and bike/wheelchair paths on relatively level ground- I am all for it and will use them. But if these common areas become crowded with market stalls, tables and chairs, and crowded people- my wheelchair and lack of ability to move quickly and agilely means- I do not get to share them at all. Pretty places for you, but if I have mobility issues- I stay home?
@SomeAnoTooter @qag @Andres4NY Some of the spaces i have seen look fantastic- if you are not mobility-challenged. Spaces with wide stairways leading to sitting areas- but without wheelchair ramps or stair lifts. Places where parked cars have been replaced with dining patios and market stalls, crowded with people walking and on bicycles. I can't dodge or dash out of the way with my cane or if I am in a wheelchair. And I can't do steep slopes or uneven pavers or broken concrete at all.
I am all for less cars and smaller roads- but the common spaces need to be planned to take into account the people who can't walk, run, or ride a bike.
I am all for less cars and smaller roads- but the common spaces need to be planned to take into account the people who can't walk, run, or ride a bike.
@EvilGinger013 @qag @Andres4NY You only contradicted me in my main point, that for most things in towns(small areas) you don't need a car. Your last sentence I mostly agree with. Only mostly, because it does not mean it has to be for cars. You, as a disabled person and others in similar situations, still need a vehicle and paths to move freely. The 2. image here shows a path that is most likely sufficient for this.
Maybe we just misunderstand each other on the basis of what defines a car.
Maybe we just misunderstand each other on the basis of what defines a car.
@SomeAnoTooter @qag @Andres4NY
There are not many ways to define "car". It's pretty simple.
And even in small towns, some of us need a car or vehicle that we can fit our wheelchairs into to get to places like *our doctor's offices*. Or do you expect us to manually push ourselves and to go up and down steep hills for miles trying to get to your pretty town square, where the offices or restaurants or shops or other services are?
I live in an area with lots of hills. I can't walk or wheelchair myself there- I *need.my.car* (an EV) to get there- once parked I can wheel or limp along the sidewalks or paths, as long as they do not have slopes I cannot get my wheelchair up. And the pavers in the second shot are a tripping hazard if I am using my cane or a rollator- smooth surfaces are safer than ones with dips and places small wheels or cane points can get caught.
I live in small town- I *DO* need my car to get places because I am not a marathoner with unending strength and stamina.
There are not many ways to define "car". It's pretty simple.
And even in small towns, some of us need a car or vehicle that we can fit our wheelchairs into to get to places like *our doctor's offices*. Or do you expect us to manually push ourselves and to go up and down steep hills for miles trying to get to your pretty town square, where the offices or restaurants or shops or other services are?
I live in an area with lots of hills. I can't walk or wheelchair myself there- I *need.my.car* (an EV) to get there- once parked I can wheel or limp along the sidewalks or paths, as long as they do not have slopes I cannot get my wheelchair up. And the pavers in the second shot are a tripping hazard if I am using my cane or a rollator- smooth surfaces are safer than ones with dips and places small wheels or cane points can get caught.
I live in small town- I *DO* need my car to get places because I am not a marathoner with unending strength and stamina.
@EvilGinger013 @qag @Andres4NY Seems like you haven't read what I wrote. I never said you don't need a vehicle(something that helps you and everyone else to move faster and more agile and for longer). I still say, towns shouldn't evolve around big streets for big cars and can and should do this without anyone being restricted to move(besides some who think they need more space than others and should have privilege to get space of 4or more other people).
Ludovic Archivist LagouardetteHey, some sass intended but are you saying that a motorized wheelchair is more expensive than a large SUV equipped for hands only driving?
A friend of mine is disabled and cannot drive. In his US city, he cannot even go to the doctor without help. Even with a motorized wheelchair, he couldn't. But in a walkable neighbourhood, he would recover most of his autonomy
Do you think cars parked on sidewalks and sign posts make for easier obstacles?
LisPi@EvilGinger013 @SomeAnoTooter @qag @Andres4NY > I need a car to get to places miles away from my home,
That's a lot more the actual problem.
Your country is using that idiotic #CarCentric development.
Turns out it's also a lot easier to build nicer accommodations for all if everything isn't ridiculously stretched out for no good reason.
Morgan ⚧️@SomeAnoTooter @EvilGinger013 you can argue for better public transit or fewer cars etc without arguing with disabled people about what accommodations we do and don't need
As it is, we seem to be going the route of getting rid of car accessible places *before* making them accessible to wheelchair users (and other mobility impaired people) in other ways. Disability accessibility should come *first,* then we can talk about getting rid of car-accessible streets
As it is, we seem to be going the route of getting rid of car accessible places *before* making them accessible to wheelchair users (and other mobility impaired people) in other ways. Disability accessibility should come *first,* then we can talk about getting rid of car-accessible streets
MJ Ray@EvilGinger013 @qag @Andres4NY there's still a roadway there for people who need it and that's good. By all means push for that to remain but please don't allow petrolheads to exploit you to block improvements of our towns.
@EvilGinger013 @qag Okay, I hadn't planned to respond to this, but since everyone else seems to want to argue with you:
1) Leave her alone, she's telling you her lived experiences.
2) Nothing she says in her toot conflicts with the "cars ruin everything" point. Cars ruin everything - including the way we gave up on accessible public transit, made destinations far apart and dangerous to get to, and removed other travel options for people. Cars (and cities designed for cars) make people need cars.
1) Leave her alone, she's telling you her lived experiences.
2) Nothing she says in her toot conflicts with the "cars ruin everything" point. Cars ruin everything - including the way we gave up on accessible public transit, made destinations far apart and dangerous to get to, and removed other travel options for people. Cars (and cities designed for cars) make people need cars.
cjharvey
garland@qag hello!!
Nick Jones
costrike@qag When i say "Ban cars," I mean it.
Theriac
Erwin Rossen 🔸@qag Where is this?
Bernard Forgues ☮︎@erwinrossen @qag Perhaps Bordeaux, France?
Ben Curthoys@qag Car parking was removed from the High Street in the middle of the town where I live long before I moved here, possibly in the 90s. People still complain about it and demand the council put it back.
Aaron Tyo-Dickerson@qag Love this before and after photo. Trees, bikes, people!
@qag When you think about it, it's pretty insane that virtually all bigger cities have designed the infrastructure around car-traffic above ground. What if we had underground infrastructure with highways, massive parking garages, and branching smaller lanes to the most important hubs in the city. Then, above ground it would look like your second picture.
Stephen Gentle@jcalais @qag Underground road tunnels are insanely expensive, and all it would do would be to move the traffic congestion (and accidents) underground.
Can’t get around the limitations of the extreme space inefficiency of cars - even a single bike lane can move more people per hour than a few lanes of road, and trams and trains so much more, it’s hardly worth comparing!
Stygian Lizard
legumancer Davy@shadyspotlight @jcalais @qag Rochester NY had an extensive streetcar/trolley/lightrail system and a subway line in the 1950s. When the streetcar system aged enough to need a refurbishment project, auto industry lobbyists bribed the city council to scrap it and replace it with busses (so that cars wouldn't have to wait behind streetcars - ignoring that busses of the time were loud, smelly and a less comfortable ride). The same thing happened in lots of other small cities at around the same time.
I live in a town of 8,000 people that's very walking accessible because it's so dang old, cars weren't invented yet when the overall layout was established. They've made it work as a destination for people who arrived from the surrounding rural areas by car, by making a few large parking lots around the edges of the town core.
I agree with underground roads not being the most practical option.
Khada'an@legumancer @shadyspotlight @jcalais @qag Man, I grew up in Rochester and that story always makes me sad and frustrated by what could have been. It's tragic.
@Khada_an @shadyspotlight @jcalais @qag I lived there for several years and it was such a frustrating thing to learn.
Sadly, they also caved in and blocked the subway entrance by Dinosaur BBQ to build more "luxury mixed use housing and retail" priced too high for any city residents to actually afford. I'm pretty sure those luxury apartment buildings are some kind of tax or money laundering scheme. No one wants to pay higher rent than East Ave or Park Ave to live downtown and watch the cops arrest people at Family Dollar multiple times a day.
@legumancer @shadyspotlight @jcalais @qag I've been baffled by the city officials choices for years. Rochester is such an old city with so much history and they've somehow just managed to keep making it -worse-
@Khada_an @legumancer @jcalais @qag My own city used to have a trolly system that was pretty popular, but they tore it out during WWII, and there's never been much effort to bring it back. They do have a bus system now, but the website is horrible to use, designed in 1997, and the buses don't seem to go anywhere useful (mainly getting folks from depressed neighborhoods to where they might work, so useful for them, but not for folks with cars.)
lux ⛥@legumancer @shadyspotlight @jcalais @qag I live in Kansas City MO, and our first streetcar line since the 50’s opened in 2016. It’s free to the public and has really contributed to the revitalization of downtown. There’s a couple extensions in development, with more planned, that have me excited for the future. I think it’s a very slow process here in the US, but cities are starting to become less car-dependent.
Fair enough! I've just seen that there are actually extensive street networks underneath Helsinki, which is a very small city. With traffic lights and roundabouts. I think they are supposed to be service roads, but the network felt pretty robust and goes straight through the city below ground. I can't help think what it woudl be like if above ground streets were just blocked off and replaced with underground routes.
erroddy@qag I don't see the degradation. Second photo have more saturation and tree apears bigger.
Keyan Bowes@qag It depends a lot on what is substituted for the parked cars. If it's trash/ homeless tents/ dog and human poop, it's a lot less attractive. It's also the reality in some cities, or in some areas of some cities.
@Keyan_Bowes @qag affordable housing and public housing for unhoused people will help with half of that
Yes. That takes the will to make it happen. Banning cars and removing parking is easy; providing the services to support the unhoused and keep the streets clean and attractive - that's work.
Anikke (Calckey)@Keyan_Bowes @legumancer @qag
Banning cars is not that easy. You have to endure weeks of mudslinging in the tabloid press, shitstorms in the social media, serious death threats and the resulting need for personal protection.
Banning cars is not that easy. You have to endure weeks of mudslinging in the tabloid press, shitstorms in the social media, serious death threats and the resulting need for personal protection.
Joseph Zitt@qag Wow, removing the cars made the buildings more colorful!
Sy Taffel
Roland Siegloff@qag Compare Brussels' Boulevard Anspach in 2014 (above) and 2022 (beneath):
Tom Whild@qag they are so ubiquitous that they become invisible. I think most people seeing the first image in isolation would think it’s a pretty nice space
o ifrit 🌱@qag Next step: remove terraces that occupy almost full sidewalks and privatize public space 👌
L.A.@ifrit @qag I have come to fear sidewalk enlargements because of the damn terraces, which always take more surfacy than they are legally allowed, plus chairs placed outside the area. what's the point of increasing pedestrian spaces if in the end you have less walking space than when you had the road?
Not to mention the best friend of bar terraces: Illegal unlicensed sellers of counterfeit products taking all the space left by the terraces.
Signaleleven@ifrit @qag it's probably licensed, no? I would be on your side if the sidewalk was the only accessible surface there, but with a pedestrian/bikable accessible street, what would you use that space for? The ability to enjoy space freed by cars can also mean sitting on a table operated by a cafe...
I mean, what do we do with the public space we claim back?
I'm not married to this thought, I'm interested in a conversation. Perhaps more green would be nice...
I mean, what do we do with the public space we claim back?
I'm not married to this thought, I'm interested in a conversation. Perhaps more green would be nice...
Joe@qag and ruin photographs!
Toon Van de Putte 🍉@qag Can confirm that a lot of people have become blind to parked cars, they don't even notice them anymore, they're so ingrained. Our mayor wouldn't believe that 90% of public road space was reserved for cars, until we pointed out that curbside parking takes up a huge amount of space, especially in narrow city streets. He'd simply not ever thought about that.
@legumancer @qag Well, I'd be interested!
@legumancer @qag I don't have a specific project
@toon @qag this is the software I used https://www.qgis.org/en/site/
Data sources for the US:
https://www.usgs.gov/the-national-map-data-delivery/gis-data-download
https://www.census.gov/geographies/mapping-files.html
https://www.arcgis.com/home/group.html?id=24838c2d95e14dd18c25e9bad55a7f82#overview (I'm not 100% sure this would work on the open source program)
Some (most?) US counties have downloadable GIS maps with things like property lines, roads, utility lines, etc. County data may be what you want for local projects.
I did a project for class on the proprietary ArcGIS mapping bike routes between specific locations with wayfinding + weighting the preferred-ness of roads based on speed limits, # of lanes and whether there is a bike lane.
I used the free version to identify land parcels of a certain size that were near either a water or a sewer connection and on a road - basically trying to identify land that would be good for building on without excessive cost.