Mastodon MigrationJun 24, 2023

Subject: What's going on with Meta?

To: @Gargron, @ruud, @jerry, @supernovae, @stux, @trumpet, @kev and other large instance admins

Rumors are tearing this place apart out here about secret deals with #Meta. The latest is that Meta has held #NDA meetings with some of you and they will federate with large instances under contracts providing financial support (1) (2).

This is a time for leadership, not silence. Please, what's going on?

(1) https://mastodon.ar.al/@aral/110598855375585873
(2) https://mastodon.social/@alexeheath/110596207691212890

Show threadEugen Rochko
@mastodonmigration I am not aware of any secret deals with Meta. As far as I can tell people are just making stuff up. There is little to comment on until Meta's platform launches.
Jun 24, 2023 at 2:47pmWeb
Show threadKevin LeecasterJun 24, 2023
@Gargron @mastodonmigration
I'm aware that there's a conspiracy theory to support pretty much anyone's political position.
Show threadSteam Deck Fork YouJun 30, 2023

@GreenFire also that dogs are talking to helicopters when they bark when there's a helicopter flying at close range.

Everybody would ignore that dog's hearing is so much better than a human's and that it's hurting but humen in general would just come up with #CrazyShit all the time because they are #StoryTellers.

They enjoy making stories and listening to stories.

Show threadRobinJun 24, 2023
@Gargron @mastodonmigration and this from Meta itself ? Any comment?
Show threadChiasmJun 24, 2023
@Gargron @mastodonmigration @Chimaera What they do with the ActivityPub protocol is up to them... That announcement they have there wouldn't need any instance admins working with them; they can easily develop their own way of being part of the fediverse.
Show threadRobinJun 24, 2023
@chiasm @Gargron @mastodonmigration Meta also has a long history of consuming any company they see as a competitor. See Instagram, WhatsApp
Show threadCody Dostal Jun 24, 2023
@Chimaera @chiasm @Gargron @mastodonmigration not really possible to consume Mastodon as a whole. They can federate through ActivityPub, and that seems to be the extent of what they’re doing. No idea what they’d be talking to some instance admins about.
Show threadRobinJun 24, 2023
@dostalcody @chiasm @Gargron @mastodonmigration well this admin said no thank you. Sounds a lot like an invitation to a secret meeting https://fosstodon.org/@kev/110592625692688836
Kev Quirk (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image Yeah, that's gonna be a hard pass from me thanks, Rachel. Zero interest in having a conversation with #Meta "off the record" or otherwise. Sharing this purely to be as transparent as possible with our members.

Fosstodon
Show threadRobinJun 24, 2023
@dostalcody @chiasm @Gargron @mastodonmigration also the phrase Embrace, Extend, Extinguish has been brought up
Show threadCody Dostal Jun 24, 2023
@Chimaera @chiasm @Gargron @mastodonmigration of course it has. But since mastodon is fully open source and has tons of instances, the most they can do is become the biggest instance, which they will be. Not much more they can do IMHO.
Show threadMastodon MigrationJun 24, 2023
@dostalcody @Chimaera @chiasm @Gargron Yes, we are instances, but we are also a community. When something big and disruptive happens to a community it is best faced with communication and proactive planning. Of course, there are guardrails, but we don't want to have to rely on them. Let's try to steer this down the center of the road.
Show threadCody Dostal Jun 24, 2023
@mastodonmigration @Chimaera @chiasm @Gargron I do agree with you. I’m not trying to say no one has a right to be concerned. Absolutely we can be concerned and it’s absolutely okay to speak with your instance admins. But I don’t think we should approach with a combative stance or otherwise imply all of them are doing wrong. Healthy communication about this is needed. I’m not a fan of Meta coming in either. I see nothing good coming from it. I also don’t agree with immediately defederating them. My opinion is we should let them try to be a good member of the fediverse. The moment they show they have no plans to be, that’s when we can defederate. I also understand many won’t agree with this stance and I’m completely ok with that as well. I think each instance should see what their members want, and go with that.
Show threadMastodon MigrationJun 24, 2023
@dostalcody @Chimaera @chiasm @Gargron This is the kind of respectful communications we need to be having. It is OK if people have different opinions on what to do about Meta, but the ability to have constructive conversations about how to deal with their arrival can be drowned out by catastrophic thinking which can lead to a collective paralysis.
Show thread4dw@r3  🦬Jun 25, 2023
@dostalcody @mastodonmigration @Chimaera @chiasm @Gargron I strongly disagree given their history and given that they have in no way appeared to make any organizational change I think any instance admin that doesn't openly state they want to defederate should have their instance defederated.
Show threadGrutjesJun 25, 2023

@dostalcody

This is a very naive take.
Meta will never be a 'good member of the fediverse' as its objectives are the opposite of the fediverse.
If you want to start a detox / rehab, don't invite the dealers.
@mastodonmigration @Chimaera @chiasm @Gargron

Show threadZ O R A N G R B I CJun 25, 2023

@Grutjes @dostalcody @mastodonmigration @Chimaera @chiasm @Gargron I don't think either. However, the OPs idea has stuff going for it. Respectful comm and a clear stance on where you stand. You want to join Meta. Your choice, just accept the consequences.

I think it's time for people on big instances to start moving to smaller ones.

*edit=typo

Show threadsi_iriniJun 27, 2023

@Grutjes

you have no idea how much i agree !!!
you are so right !!
thank you !!

@dostalcody @mastodonmigration @Chimaera @chiasm @Gargron

Show threadZ O R A N G R B I CJun 25, 2023

@dostalcody @mastodonmigration @Chimaera @chiasm @Gargron There's something called a "trackrecord". It shows what you have repeatedly done and gives an insight into your mind setting. Meta is beyond the benefit of a doubt. They used up their quota of it. Personally, I am glad my admin, @Curator, will defederate if they appear.

However, it is my opinion and not necessarily everybody's. The fact that I can have it and express it, means you're onto something with your approach. 😉👏

Show threadthe roamerJun 24, 2023

@mastodonmigration @dostalcody @Chimaera @chiasm @Gargron

Well put. We need a shared discussion of these critical matters. Meta's arrival will affect everyone on the Fediverse, and the actions of the large instances will impact on everyone, whatever instance they are on.

Show threadCrazyMyraJun 24, 2023
@the_roamer @mastodonmigration @dostalcody @Chimaera @chiasm @Gargron
It's entirely feasible that the discussions were about real-world things like how the sudden increased flow of traffic could overwhelm existing servers.
I'm not very good at conspiracy theories. Sorry.
Show threadRobinJun 24, 2023
@OutOnTheMoors I think it was the secrecy and learning second hand about meetings and NDAs that lead to suspicion. TBF Meta has a horrible track record.
Show threadthe roamerJun 24, 2023

@OutOnTheMoors @mastodonmigration @dostalcody @Chimaera @chiasm @Gargron

Noted, and I hope you are right. I am not a natural conspiracy theorist either, but I know an evasive answer when I see one.

Some admins give clear answers, others don't. That second group includes Eugen. I would have thought he can make time to give precise answers to the precise concerns that have been raised, rather than shrugging his shoulders murmuring "it's all rumours".

Very much hope you are right.

Show threadRobinJun 24, 2023
@the_roamer @OutOnTheMoors same
Show threadCrazyMyraJun 24, 2023

@the_roamer @mastodonmigration @dostalcody @Chimaera @chiasm @Gargron

And as far as the "NDAs" are concerned, it's only people who don't have privileged access - because they can't be trusted not to let the cat out of the bag early - who breathlessly "live" report the latest Apple launch. The media that respects embargoes has had a look, and has copies of all the speeches, days in advance.

Show threadjgeorgeJun 25, 2023
@dostalcody @Chimaera @chiasm @Gargron @mastodonmigration With all due respect, I can’t tell if this comment is simply naive or intentionally obtuse. These “tons of instances” are funded out of pocket by their admins, Meta could, with little effort, flood the feed with enough data for many/most of those admins to give up for purely financial reasons. I don’t know anyone who would bankrupt themselves fighting a war of principles with Meta - pitting “no money but lots of principles” loses to “all the money and no principles” every time. Meta doesn’t have to destroy all of Mastodon, all they have to do is make it irrelevant. If 95% of Mastodon traffic comes from FB/IG, why would any new user join any instance other than that one? 99.9999% of internet users couldn’t give a rodent’s posterior about FOSS, federation, or anything of the sort. They want a place to be online and see everybody else online.
Show threadCody Dostal Jun 24, 2023
@Chimaera @chiasm @Gargron @mastodonmigration oh 100%. I’d expect most instance admins to not entertain anything that is detrimental to their users.
Show threadLAURENJun 25, 2023
@dostalcody @Chimaera @chiasm @Gargron @mastodonmigration You'd be surprised then.
Show threadSteam Deck Fork YouJun 30, 2023

@Chimaera

So in the #WorstCaseScenario, let's imagine it that the "Rumors" that @mastodonmigration started talking about are all true.

What is the WorstCaseScenario?(apart from some #OpenSource developers probably becoming a lot richer which in my view is a #SuperGoodThing cause then they'll have enough money to not need donations to run their instances)

Also you have probably heard about people being bought out, later leaving the company, right, starting their own? ie. #BlueSky? #Bells? 😆

Show threadSteam Deck Fork YouJun 30, 2023

@Chimaera

maybe something has been proven to YOU but I demand better #proof than a #feeling, which I get from how you phrased it.

ie. if I said "he looked away and smiled when he gave me the popcorn and I was sure then that the popcorn was POISONED!" is a feeling and #JumpingToConclusions.

You can do that for you. You be you, I'm not saying to change yourself and be like I want you to be.

If you want feeling to have a firm grip over your life

#BeMyGuest!

Show threadSteam Deck Fork YouJun 30, 2023

@dostalcody

> not really possible to consume Mastodon as a whole.

Yeah, probably not since after consuming all instances we just create new ones.

#Mastodon is #OpenSource and anyone can use it #ForProfit and make their own companies, create new instances and start letting in people for free or charging them(their choice, nobody really cares as long as there is interest) and even if we say meta would own it and defederate their instances...a new #fediverse would be born.

Show threadSteam Deck Fork YouJun 30, 2023

#followup thing needed to be #clarified here is that this is #legal to do because the #Mastodon software is #licensed with

GNU Affero General Public License, version 3.0 #GNUAffero.

Just read https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/blob/main/LICENSE which is the #LegalStuff for the #ServerSoftware.(which we all know has a #WebInterface #client included, so you got it all there)

You can start a company, make a #Profit and you are not legally required to give anything to anyone.

#OpenSource folks!

mastodon/LICENSE at main · mastodon/mastodon

Your self-hosted, globally interconnected microblogging community - mastodon/mastodon

GitHub
Show threadSteam Deck Fork YouJun 30, 2023

@dostalcody

They'd probably be talking to the biggest ones, since you know #logic: Biggest ones = #MostWebsiteTraffic = most users = eventually translates into money if you feed all those users with #ads

Show threadSteam Deck Fork YouJun 30, 2023

@Chimaera

Yeah, but I am most curious about what you think could happen in the #WorstCaseScenario?

Do you believe that in the worst case, Mark Zuckerberg could buy every Mastodon instance there is?

No worry if you don't wanna answer this, I'll be cool if you don't wanna answer my question and you don't need to give me a reason.

#YourCall

Show threaddamonJun 24, 2023

@Chimaera This is a leak from Meta. We have known since march Meta was working on a decentralised Twitter competitor that is built on AcftivityPub. 99% of the info being reported on are leaks from content creators testing the app and from internal employees. That post is from a leaked internal meeting.

@Gargron @ruud @jerry @supernovae @stux @trumpet @kev @mastodonmigration

Show threadsi_iriniJun 24, 2023

@Chimaera @Gargron @mastodonmigration

Nice they announce it
So I have a question
With the things I write, they will eat me up and troll around.
I learned my lesson on Twitter

If they make a platform, instance and incorporate here
Can someone help me there to completely block them?

Is a request to all out there who are here because the other social networks represent things that a lot do not support

I like it here, it should not be flooded by them, at least I do not want them, not anymore...

Show threadserklarvelJun 24, 2023
@si_irini @Chimaera @Gargron @mastodonmigration you have the option of blocking Meta's instance/plataform if you want, you don't need the admin/moderator to do that.
Show threadsi_iriniJun 24, 2023

@serklarvel

Thanks, but how?

I also do not want the admin to do this, everyone should do what he wants
I know how to block a person, just want to know how to block a complete instance, unfortunately do not know.

@Chimaera @Gargron @mastodonmigration

Show threadHistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴Jun 25, 2023

@Chimaera

s/: From #SuckerBerg with love: /s

https://mastodon.world/@Chimaera/110599776294796063

#ProjectBarcelona
#Project92

@Gargron @mastodonmigration

Robin (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image @[email protected] @[email protected] and this from Meta itself ? Any comment?

Mastodon
Show threadRobinJun 25, 2023
@HistoPol @Gargron @mastodonmigration thank you, yes, I prefer being in a smaller quieter space. Let the other behemoths fight each other in a cage match.
Show threadophiocephalic 🐍Jun 24, 2023
@Gargron @mastodonmigration
There is absolutely everything to comment on
Show threadMastodon MigrationJun 24, 2023
@Gargron Great. Thank you. That's what we needed to hear. Please keep us informed with any details about their arrival and anything we can do to be prepared.
Show threadRobinJun 24, 2023
@Gargron @mastodonmigration also: https://fosstodon.org/@kev/110592625692688836
Kev Quirk (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image Yeah, that's gonna be a hard pass from me thanks, Rachel. Zero interest in having a conversation with #Meta "off the record" or otherwise. Sharing this purely to be as transparent as possible with our members.

Fosstodon
Show threadthe roamerJun 24, 2023

@Gargron @mastodonmigration

Hi Eugen. "Secret deals" would imply finalised agreements. Your post tells us that there are none at the moment.

But have there been meetings between instance admins and Meta, and in those meetings, was there a discussion of funding / cost-sharing arrangements? Are your own instances ruling out financial payments from Meta? These questions may be based on rumour and speculation, but the easier it should be to clear them up once and for all. Thank you.

Show threadJaime HerazoJun 24, 2023

@the_roamer
That's what we call a Suspiciously Specific Denial. No "I have not met with them", no "I have not heard any proposal from FB", no "I haven't signed any documents", just "I don't know of any secret deals".

I don't feel reassured.

@Gargron @mastodonmigration

Show threadferricoxideJun 24, 2023
@the_roamer @Gargron @mastodonmigration Likely all questions whose public answers would be precluded by the rumored NDAs.
Show threadGMate8Jun 24, 2023
@Gargron @mastodonmigration not "deals", meeting. How can you not know any of this, if even dansup knows something? Could you elaborate?
Show threadMOVED [email protected]Jun 24, 2023

this tho? https://beach.city/@vantablack/110599991866256438

"Employees from Meta have been meeting with leaders from large ActivityPub servers recently, including Mastodon CEO Eugen Rochko, to discuss the plan under NDA ahead of the app’s release."

Show threadwb x64Jun 24, 2023
@vantablack lies, and the lying liars who tell them (and sell us all out to giant fascist corporations)
Show threadFediThing has moved!Jun 24, 2023

@Gargron @mastodonmigration

Sorry to be picky, but that statement is not actually denying such meetings happened though is it?

Nor is it denying NDAs happened?

"There is little to comment on until Meta's platform launches" sounds very much like the phrase someone would use if an NDA has been signed on an upcoming product. Third party developers often say that phrase if they're discussing collaborations with large publishers.

If you want to deny these things specifically and directly, that would be great?

Show threadFediThing has moved!Jun 24, 2023

@Gargron @mastodonmigration

I mean... compare what Eugen says above to what @kev from Fosstodon just published:

https://fosstodon.org/@kev/110592625692688836

It doesn't sound like people are making stuff up at all. Meta's own email talks about meeting many admins, about "confidential details that should not be shared with others" etc. That sounds like NDA meetings.

It's really hard to reconcile the existence of this letter from Meta with what Eugen is saying in his statement.

Kev Quirk (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image Yeah, that's gonna be a hard pass from me thanks, Rachel. Zero interest in having a conversation with #Meta "off the record" or otherwise. Sharing this purely to be as transparent as possible with our members.

Fosstodon
Show threadJesseJun 24, 2023
@FediThing @Gargron @mastodonmigration No one is denying the meetings.
Show threadMedea Vanamonde🏳️‍⚧️ ♀Jun 24, 2023
@Gargron @mastodonmigration paranoia for phun and prauphit
Show threadCykonotJun 24, 2023
@Gargron @mastodonmigration why would you be aware of a "secret" Mr rochko
Show threadCassandrichJun 24, 2023
@Gargron @mastodonmigration It would mean a lot more if you state unequivocally that you are not entertaining, and will not entertain, any arrangements where FB pays for not getting defederated^W^W^Woffsetting the cost of the load they create or whatever.
Show threadJonathan D. Cope, Esq.Jun 24, 2023
@Gargron @mastodonmigration From a business perspective Meta would want access by creating an instance so as to scrape data from subscribers to Mastodon. That's the first thing that Mastodon should watch out for.
Show threadThaiis Thei 𓁟Jun 24, 2023
@Gargron @mastodonmigration So you don't have a plan for it? If you do, what is it? Are you planning on asking us members what we want? Your silence is not working for you atm. Please talk to us.
Show thread★ Amy Star ★Jun 27, 2023

@Gargron Eugen, we've seen the way that Meta treats its users and private data, and we've seen the way they muscle in on new territory and perform hostile takeovers by any means necessary. These are not unknown variables. We have past experiences to guide our opinions.

There are hundreds of thousands of people in the Fediverse looking to you for leadership and protection at a time where the biggest threat to this network in recent memory is looming. Right now, people's perception of you is that you are, at best, being naive, and at worst, selling them out.

You need to step up and take a firm stand, one way or another. That shouldn't require you to break any NDA that may or may not have been signed. You cannot allow Meta and P92 to gain a foothold through the network effect before you so much as make a statement about this.

Whether you like it or not, you have become a "central" figure on the Fediverse, and as such you must take responsibility for that.

Show threadapophisJun 28, 2023
@AmyZenunim
> That shouldn't require you to break any NDA that may or may not have been signed

horrible thought: what if it was also a non-*disparagement* agreement

but @Gargron isn't boneheaded enough to sign something like *that*, surely...
Show threadTL JordanJun 28, 2023

@Gargron @mastodonmigration

The way that so many are feverishly defederating when nothing has actually happened yet really annoys me. I made an additional account on another instance to placate those people, but I don't plan to quit this one.

Show threadEricounetJun 28, 2023

@Gargron @mastodonmigration

Hi,

maybe we could think "before" the launch, and build a strategy (all together ...) in case if something goes wrong. And what could go wrong with Meta? They are soo good guys!