Jade Strom🏳️‍⚧️

Last boost, WAY too many people seem to be freaking out about Meta's move, in a way that seems counter to why I like the Fedisphere.

Even if it was a Microsoft style, Embrace, Expand, Exterminate tactic, that would involve US moving to their servers, which... sorry ain’t happening.

Yes, we should look at what Meta is doing skeptically, but we should let them do it because damn it, if they implement correctly, it would also mean moving *OUT* of their environment is easier.

Open Data is a two way street, in AND out of a system.

Jun 19, 2023 at 10:56pmWeb
Show threadElectric Keet, SN76489 enjoyerJun 19, 2023
@jadedfox Letting them poison the well just because they might offer up an antidote is... well, that's a take.
Show threadJade Strom🏳️‍⚧️Jun 19, 2023
@electrickeet HOW does it poison? Seriously. That hasn't been explained yet. How does it change your interactions at all with the rest of the fedisphere? Unless you are concerned about a “September that Never Ended" style event, and well, that is ALSO fixable. Start blocking then. Them accessing us only allows people to see what is out there, and when others show it's better with good moderation, it may encourage others to move off their servers. It's no different than Alt-Right folks making servers. Once they do anything wrong kick 'em to the block. It's open source, and those of us out here can be WATCHING for ill intent, and unlike with say Internet Explorer, we won't accept their changes unless it's also open source. So where is the poison?
Show threadElectric Keet, SN76489 enjoyerJun 19, 2023

@jadedfox Defederation stops the poison, yes. It sounded like you were advocating for opening up to them, which just... ugh.

So what do you mean by "freaking out" then?

Show threadJade Strom🏳️‍⚧️Jun 19, 2023

@electrickeet I’m advocating for letting them actually break rules first, not just judging them based on who they are. I sure as hell won't touch their stuff. But punishing for what someone may do, well... that's what bigots are using against us. It feels wrong to me.

And I'm also advocating that the system is strong enough that they won't be able to hurt us if they start to misbehave, because then POOF gone. We'll have too many people looking for even the SLIGHTEST fuck ups from them.

This isn't the Nazi bar situation, and preemptively defedding them, while it won't hurt us, it also doesn't help us. We could get some users that are stuck in that ecosystem OUT, banning them before they have a chance to see what’s out there, their first impression of the fedisphere will be the ones that don't ban, which I promise the nazis, the trolls, and the jerks won’t.

Let a rule be broken, then ban hammer, but if no rules are being broken, is there harm?

Show threadJade Strom🏳️‍⚧️Jun 19, 2023

@electrickeet
All that said, Corp CONTROL? FUCK no. Absolutely not. We keep this open, keep this ours. Any changes they may suggest are gonna be looked at so tightly, and all of us out here can refuse anything that is not completely open and free. (And, if they do it anyway, ban then, and ban any instances that take those changes)

But punishing for Pre-Crimes, as Gruber put it, is very Orwellian (well, more PK Dick, but…) in way that makes me very uncomfortable, even for multi billion dollar corps.

Show threadElectric Keet, SN76489 enjoyerJun 19, 2023

@jadedfox They are totally the Nazi bar. The Nazi bar is exactly the right metaphor to use here, in the very literal "there will be literal fucking Nazis if you let them in the door at all" sense. Letting the Nazis in won't help rescue anyone, it'll just help the Nazis spread.

Honestly, I'm a little worried that you don't see it.

Show threadStormy Dragon Jun 19, 2023

@jadedfox

If there is a threat to all the users of #Mastodon that would be posed by #Meta merely being in the #Fediverse, then what is protecting those users from the numerous unknown instances that are already here from doing whatever it is Meta is going to do?

The campaign to preemptively block #Threads seems to me to imply there is some fundamental architectural flaw in the #ActivityPub protocol that admins are currently relying on security by obscurity to mitigate. If so, then the actual problem is Mastodon itself, and federation should be abandoned entirely until this flaw can be corrected, rather than using band-aids like blocking one big instance and then relying on the goodwill of individual admins to keep the system safe.

Show threadDoc Edward Morbius ⭕​Jun 20, 2023

@StormyDragon You ask:

what is protecting those users from the numerous unknown instances that are already here from doing whatever it is Meta is going to do?

Batshit. Insane. Gobs. Of. Wealth.

Facebook is scale at scales the mind simply boggles at.

  • 3 billion monthly average users (MAU).

  • 5 billion items posted per day. That's about 60,000 per second.

  • A market capitalisation (after a couple of bad years, I'll add), of three quarters of a trillion dollars.

Compared to its home state of California, that's a wealth of $19,000 per person in the state which Facebook can leverage to do its bidding. Facebook bought WhatsApp, then making a loss on $10m in sales, for $19 billion, largely cash. Keep in mind that the typical US household would struggle to meet an unexpected $400 expense. Facebook's price was more than $400 per resident of California, which is to say, Facebook's buying power is comparable to that of the wealthiest state in the United States.

Yes, there are threats that small instances may pose to the Fediverse. Yes, there are privacy and surveillance issues I've long been aware of and have warned against, as have others (see @alex particularly, who ... has greater pedigree than I do in this space). But those instances don't have access to Facebook's resources, combined with Facebook's nearly-twenty-year record of abusing its dumb fucks, excuse me, users, and violating condition after condition after condition regulators have imposed upon it.

#Facebook #Meta #Metablock #ItsTheMotherfuckingScaleStupid #Scale #FuckZuck #FuckFacebook #P92 #Project92 #BarcelonaProject

@jadedfox

Show threadJustusWingertJun 20, 2023
@dredmorbius @StormyDragon @alex @jadedfox I'm still waiting for that magical tale of how any amount of money can break federation... Just the rumor of Facebook coming over made dozens of instances of various types pre-emptively defederate.
How exactly is Facebook supposed to corrupt dozens of developers, hundreds of server administrators and tens of thousands of users that are enabled to take all their stuff and leave on the spot?
It's simply nonsense.
Show threadDoc Edward Morbius ⭕​Jun 20, 2023

@JustusWingert I've not yet reached the point of blocking Facebook / Zuckerberg apologists on sight.

But I'm getting much closer to that.

Answering your question: Solid proof would require demonstration, which is to say, precisely the harms you are describing.

I've repeated myself twice now on how FB have long since proved themselves untrustworthy against far more capable entities than the Fediverse. If you're going to refuse to see or admit that ... well, that's your problem.

Preemptive blocking and defederation of both Meta and instances federating with it seems the prudent path to self preservation which entails the least harms. At the very least, it's a maintenance of the status quo (FB and the Fediverse are separate). It does nothing to prevent FB members from joining the Fediverse. And it gives FB ample time (a few decades, as I've suggested previously) to demonstrate itself a good-faith actor. Decades it desperately needs in order to do so.

With that, please don't reply or tag me further, thanks.

@StormyDragon @alex @jadedfox

Show threadJustusWingertJun 20, 2023

@dredmorbius @StormyDragon @alex @jadedfox ah yes, the famous preemptive block warning. You probably expect that to impress me? I come from a time when we had killfiles longer than our address books...

I am not talking about anything except the federation as based on activitypub. You are making wild and absurd claims about it that fly in the face of reason and spread baseless panic. The fact you can't even come up with a theoretical description of a takeover is telling.

Show threadJustusWingertJun 20, 2023
@dredmorbius @StormyDragon @alex @jadedfox You either don't know enough about the protocol to do so, in which case maybe listen to the folks who do and stop spreading misinformation, or you know enough about it and are intentionally deceiving people.
Show threadJustusWingertJun 20, 2023
@dredmorbius @StormyDragon @alex @jadedfox The fediverse stands or falls with the personal integrity of its caretakers and users. You are actively undermining that right now by baseless claiming that those caretakers are failing or about to fail.
Literally the greatest danger to fediverse as of this moment is people like you gnawing away at its very foundations for a quick like and boost.