Mastodawn

Also, we have to set out the metric for success.

Is our goal to have 100 million accounts on mastodon.social while every other server only has one account?

If that happened, I believe Mastodon would be a failure as a decentralized project.

Mastodon’s success isn’t that 11 million people use it. It’s that it’s part of a network of 24,569 nodes.

The problem is—and I can’t stress this enough—that certain people just want a Twitter replacement.

They’re not looking long term. They’re not considering future implications on network infrastructure. They’re not foreseeing that a temporary solution could potentially become permanent.

The goal here isn’t just to get everyone off Twitter, it’s to destroy Big Social.

And how to do that? Decentralize!

But if you re-centralize on one server, the Fediverse is as good as dead.

If your intent is to push people off Twitter towards mastodon.social, then Twitter has won.

Elon musk has a net worth of $174B.

And mastodon.social has a tiny sliver of $300,000 a year.

If Mastodon is re-centralized, it is in a fight that it cannot win. It just takes Elon Musk to buy it outright for the game to be over.

But if Mastodon does what it does best—decentralization—then it will win because Mastodon *cannot* be bought!

https://mastodon.social/@atomicpoet/110255664058403160

Some people might believe that decentralization is mere idealism, but in fact it's practical.

Yes, centralization is "easy" in more ways than one.

It is easy for onboarding -- but also easy for Big Social to acquire.

Decentralization is hard for onboarding. It is also hard for Big Social to acquire.

I've alluded to this earlier today.

I think there's a happy medium between "join the default" and "choose one of 10,000 servers".

Maybe that medium is a wizard that helps people find their *best* Mastodon server.

Frank X. Shaw Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet a sorting hat say!

Jesse Skinner Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet yes but that's been there for a while and is part of the confusion and decision paralysis. So maybe having a default is useful, but it'd be better if it were a default randomly selected from a pool of "general interest" servers that are open to everyone and looking to grow?

william.maggos Apr 25, 2023

@JesseSkinner @atomicpoet

what if we had a lot more servers based on location? default people to their closest city instance.

Adam Apr 25, 2023

@JesseSkinner @atomicpoet
I think an "I don't care just give me a random server" button is the best option. New users don't necessarily know what's important to them in a server--they need an option to just dismiss all choices, not make them easier.

Anant Shrivastava aka anantshri Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet if mastodon does a full transfer of accounts it could be: register by default on your temp home mastodon.social you remain in it for 30 days meantime you find a better place or based on your post and bio mastodon suggests a better server and you click a button and move to that. This effectively could be something all service providers can use given that the software allows full transfer of account.

@anant Except, you can't take your posts with you!

Anant Shrivastava aka anantshri Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet that was the "if" part in my post. I think i didnt made that clear enough.

What i meant was we should try to get mastodon to do a proper transfer and then all sorts of possibilities open up

@anant Agreed.

ActiveCultures Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet Heavy user but technophobic - and it’s harder than it should be. I definitely felt a paralysis when I joined - trying to find an instance that felt like a topic fit, and more in my time zone so conversation happens when I’m active, in English, was not easy. And then my first instance came came close to failing so I had to migrate. Still haven’t rebuilt my following list to a point where I don’t honestly miss the conversations I had in the other place.

Luis M. Gómez C.Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet For me, that medium is that when you choose a username the system chooses, by default, a random server between the general purpose ones, with the possibility to change it from a drop down list and a button to explore by categories below that.

@KilluaCL That's actually a very good idea.

John Declan Apr 25, 2023

@KilluaCL @atomicpoet The most sensible answer here thus far

FeralRobots Apr 25, 2023

@KilluaCL
I'd want to see some qualifying criteria, so they wouldn't be putting people on instances that might not be able to scale.
@atomicpoet

Luis M. Gómez C.Apr 25, 2023

@FeralRobots @atomicpoet I think that wouldn't be difficult since they have the info about servers growth an maybe popularity by region. I remember Eugen told they tried to give small servers more relevance at some point but the problem was that a lot of them doesn't allowed for straight forward sign up, but required an application. So I guess it just take a good criteria considering past experience and improve it if necessary.

FeralRobots Apr 25, 2023

@KilluaCL
I'm guessing one thing that's going on is that people have been talking about a lot of this stuff for years but now they're in the position of having to DO things. That's often a difficult transition, especially when a lot of unexpected things (like scrambling for more server resources, etc) get in the way.
Success is expensive, in both money & effort. I sympathize.
@atomicpoet

Luis M. Gómez C.Apr 25, 2023

@FeralRobots @atomicpoet Yeah, I think they're aware of the need but it has to be a fairly good solution, we don't want the platform to change weekly like the other place. As you said, money, as always, is an issue and (I keep citing the verge interview) at least they are also aware of the need to help servers to rise money.

@atomicpoet I would agree with this! But I think right now, moving to a default in one app on one platform is a good step towards getting there! I don’t think randomizing servers based on some list is a better solution. A wizard or a collection organized easily by interest areas seems like a good idea! But the thing is, you’ll always have to make choices and leave options off a list. And that’s not a failure!

And frankly, if data portability mattered, a lot of this would be moot.

@film_girl So I want to be clear. I really do want more people to use the Fediverse.

I also want decentralization to exist because it's important for the Fediverse to belong to all of us instead of one guy who owns the largest server.

So how do we accomplish both goals?

@atomicpoet I mean, I think we first have to acknowledge that the guy who owns the largest server is also the defacto BDFL of the project. And if you can’t reconcile that (which is fair!), then it might need to be forked like Pleroma or Soapbox. So Mastodon != Fediverse and Mastodon != ActivityPub is number one.

I agree that decentralization is good but we need to all acknowledge there is a central group making the technical decisions and that that group also owns the largest server. 1/X

@atomicpoet I think the next part is that you could create a more robust onboarding system for users who want to find their home instance. A sorting hat like @fxshaw said. That’s still going to make decisions that centralize some aspects of server choice, but you could at least get the raison d’etre of *why* someone has to choose a server out there. You could choose defaults based on region/language. I’m not saying the current solution is THE solution, but it is a start. 2/X

@atomicpoet I do think that if we really want the whole idea of “the server you choose doesn’t matter,” to be true, we have to let people migrate data to new servers too (assuming the server wants to support that, but also make that clear), b/c otherwise everyone is going to choose the large servers anyway. I also think servers themselves need to build communities outside of joinmastodon.org (and many have) and stand on their own rather than as parts of Mastodon 3/X

@atomicpoet b/c again, if this is really about being decentralized, than the Mastodon of it all shouldn’t matter as much/at all. I choose to join Hachyderm b/c I work in tech. Or I’m on Fosstodon b/c I’m really into a certain type of open source. Or I’m on Me.dm because I want to be with other writers. Some places have done that, to be clear. But that should be more part of the idea. Let communities do the outreach. 4/X

@atomicpoet I think there is always going to be some tension between the goals of being decentralized and also of getting new users. And I think we have to acknowledge that regardless of the behavior of one app for one platform, centralization in some way, is inevitable and that doesn’t have to be a bad thing. Every successful open system still has pockets that are essentially centralized in some way. The beauty about these sorts of systems is that you can move or fork if you want. 5/X

@atomicpoet but I don’t necessarily think that being able to have a million different hydras is what has value. It’s that you have the option to move or to do your own thing. 6/6

Ellia Ivy McLeod Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet Having to choose is the biggest complaint people have about the sign up process for Mastodon.

@elliaivyworld I know! So how do we make this as easy and painless as possible?

Obviously, a choice must be made -- otherwise we run into the danger of re-centralization.

Ellia Ivy McLeod Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet I'll get back to you on this. I have some ideas I need to check into.

Cray On 🖍️Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet @elliaivyworld To at least reduce centralization of Mastodon, I'd pick a random server (with open registration) from the curated list at https://joinmastodon.org/servers. Not the best solution in the long run, but a decent one in the mean time, in my opinion anyway.

Servers

Find where to sign up for the decentralized social network Mastodon.

Cray On 🖍️Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet @elliaivyworld To be more clear: I mean, always pick a random one from the list.

Ellia Ivy McLeod Apr 25, 2023

@cray_on @atomicpoet I strongly believe the answer is based on the language used on the website. It needs to be put in simpler terms. I'll mock up some ideas and share them.

NoHomers Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet I'm a Twitter refugee. I just wanted a Twitter not controlled by a psychopath. That's the truth. I like the idea of a fediverse, but imo, Mastodon's UI can be compared to running Linux because it's free vs Twitter being Mac OS, something that feels natural and easy. Albeit now quite a bit broken due to the psycho.

Greg Stolze Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet But it's gotta be a fun process, not a drag. Like those "Which Character From DIRTBIKE HOOKERS Are You?" quizzes.

Lindsay Apr 26, 2023

@atomicpoet
That wizard doesn't even need to be hard. Most social apps ask some "getting to know you" questions as part of onboarding so it would feel normal for everyday users.

Importantly, it shouldn't give options - just a single best-match server. People who want a list of server options or know the server they want to join already have ways of doing that

It could be as simple as:
- Preferred language?
- Location? (or 'don't care')
- Tick some interests

On the backend, servers that are over a nominal size, have demonstrated reliability and moderation, and are open to new users can register and provide matching info. Single best-match server is returned to the user (randomised if multiple candidates)

Andres Jalinton Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet
It's easier technically too.
Look at big streaming services spending millions om CDNs, and there it Torrent protocol, totally free and works best when there is more people.
Same in the

more instances means more space for everyone.

Dr Pen Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet decentralised socmed may soon be legally required. Here in the EU GDPR law possibly requires data processing to be done in the EU, hence Meta showing up in the game. I belive there is an increasing need for the decentralised principle to be applied to all other digitised information though that's a bigger discussion than this thread. The issue like you say is finance, and portability of identity and own content.

Gen X-Wing Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet Democracy vs Despotism. A democracy is distributed (and in many ways decentralized if it’s a healthy one).

I know we (you/me) disagree on tech now and then, but the idea of an open decentralized, distributed, and diverse social media I think we are in agreement on.

If fact a healthy system of disagreement is the point. Lots of different software ideas and communities. Social media needs to outbreed.

shauny

Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet you have a typo here. It should read:

Decentralization is hard for onboarding. It is also **HARD** for Big Social to acquire.

@shauny Thanks. Fixed.

william.maggos Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet

I agree we must remain decentralized, but old school Twitter is what I want us to be. about ideas, not communities. we have to cater to journalists to make that happen. once that's proven, that we can be a better version of Twitter via decentralization and FOSS, then they will be explaining the value of the model. all future VC centralized startups are seen as anachronistic.

@wjmaggos That's just one thing the Fediverse can be, however.

It can also be many other things.

william.maggos Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet

the fedi can be. but I think Mastodon has to choose. and maybe the people who want that experience will all have to switch to Calckey etc servers.

Dr Audrey Glover Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet I like Mastodon because it is not a Twitter replacement.
To me it is a different (an enjoyable) way to interact with others (or just “listen” to what they say).
I’m glad I have learnt how to use it as a novice.

dragonfrog Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet I'm getting the impression that finding people across servers is the challenge. Is that gets easy enough to do, decentralisation becomes a breeze. On Facebook I can probably find that person I met at the party. On Twitter I can probably find that author whose book I just read. On Mastodon I probably can't, even if they're here.

Elias Mårtenson Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet My knowledge of her is entirely based on her appearances on Twit. Most of the time I tend to agree with her opinions, so I definitely do respect her.

As far as I can tell, she's been a very heavy used of twitter for a long time, and when read in that context, the comments makes sense. The flaw in the reasoning is obvious to someone who has been here for a long time, but I can see the frustration from someone who is used to the birdsite.

I mean, of course it makes onboarding easier if the mobile application defaults to m.s. No even the staunchest of Fediverse fanboys (fedibros?) would disagree with that. It's not a good thing for the Fediverse as a whole though.

My personal idea for a while has been to somehow make it really easy to create a fork of, say, Tusky that is branded for your instance. Then if someone wants to join jorts.horse, they go to the appstore and download the jorts.horse application. This would have the additional benefit of aligning with a rather large group of people who can't really tell the difference between a mobile application and a website.

@loke @atomicpoet fwiw, this has nothing to do with my enjoyment/usage of Twitter. I actually had an account on a different server and migrated to this one when I decided I’d give Mastodon the college try b/c I wanted to be on an instance that I felt I could rely on existing in 6 months and that I felt was a sane default in terms of features. I’ve always assumed I’d eventually move to my own instance.

@loke @atomicpoet This is about what I see as the incongruity of people claiming they want new users and then bikeshedding or outright brigading any attempt to create a better onboarding experience.

I actually like your idea of customized clients for different servers. In my opinion, the actual servers should also be doing a better job of advertising themselves to communities/potential new users. I don’t think that solves the general onboarding flow issue, but I like the idea.

Elias Mårtenson Apr 25, 2023

@film_girl @atomicpoet I actually thought about it first from a practical perspective, because in order to get push notifications working effectively you need a dedicated client (since the client needs an application key, and having the user manually enter the key is a really terrible user experience).

After that, I noticed there are a lot of other benefits too. Perhaps there is room for a service that maintains the custom clients for multiple instances (ensuring updates are pushed etc). Perhaps something for @mastohost ?

@atomicpoet both things can be true! You *should* have real data portability. That clearly wasn’t a design decision anyone valued at the beginning (and it still isn’t valued now) and it would make the whole “pick a server” thing less risky. But that doesn’t change that the experience for a new user is not good and figuring out sane defaults is a move in the right direction

It is drama and virtue signalling to treat defaulting on one client in one app as if it calamitously changing the project.

@atomicpoet I’m not arguing that the current implementation is the ultimate solution. I think you could do some different things to try to help people find their home server if you wanted. But I do think leaning on sane defaults is going to lead to more people actually joining and then using Mastodon. And arguing against that b/c of some unfair “advantage” mastodon.social has, feels counterproductive.

Adam Fields Apr 25, 2023

@film_girl @atomicpoet It’s definitely the case that which server you pick has a massive impact on the experience you have here, especially as you’re still finding your footing. I would love to see post portability.

SpaceLifeForm Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet @film_girl

Good thread.

Since no one mentioned it, I will.

Do some research before you pick an instance.

hava Apr 25, 2023

@atomicpoet @film_girl can we FIRST try to keep the already registered users active here or coming back before thinking of solutions to attract new users? because i notice people create accounts, login & because there is no interaction, go back to twitter. And when you go to the #introduction page, you find new users looking for who to follow. If #mastodon can create a page like the local or federated feed where every mastodon user is shown randomly, new users will be able to click on those with profiles they find interesting and follow. This will solve part of the "no-interaction" problem driving users back to #twitter or #bluesky or other platforms