I got more pushback than I anticipated on one argument in my post about the Ninth Circuit decision about the MAGA-hat-wearing-teacher: the idea that a MAGA hat is not self-evidently outside acceptable public conduct.

I certainly have a reaction to seeing someone in a MAGA hat — I figure they’d probably hate me, and I probably wouldn’t care to hang out with them — and I know some people have stronger reactions. But . . .

…I can’t wrap my head around the concept that openly supporting a former President, who got 75 million votes last time, who is still hugely popular among Republicans, is not only completely acceptable in my social circle or yours, but is completely unacceptable in a way that the law should enforce. It’s just not in the realm of reason. It’s one of the more striking examples I’ve encountered recently of in-a-bubble thinking.
….. It’s actually scary to me that some people think that tens of millions of people should be treated as as-a-matter-of-law outsiders. It’s a terrible, terrible way to run a society.

@Popehat On the broader, more realistic scale, you're right.

But the obvious counterexample of the white hoods of the KKK are inherently treated as racist, when they are just pieces of cloth- and you can probably say that 'not all KKK members are racist'- it's just formally in line with their policies.

Of course, maga hats and similar are not there yet, and have time to veer off still. But equating it simply to 'supporting trump' is, I feel, disingenuous, because there is a lot of baggage now

@Oggie @Popehat consider exactly 100 years ago.

White pointy Klan hoods were new, having been invented by a recent blockbuster movie where the Klan were the good guys. Politicians proudly announced their affinity for the Klan.

How society should have responded to racist headgear then is how society should respond to racist headgear now.

@Oggie @Popehat yeah, I hate to contravene Goodwyn’s Law, but I don’t think you should have to wait for “Nazi’s to start a genocide” before feeling threatened by them. But even if you believe that that is the direction MAGA is headed, it is better not to feed the trolls, they obviously feed of the controversy.
@Popehat it is, however, reciprocal. (If you're not white, if you contain a uterus, the list is long.) This is pretty much socially inevitable; if someone will not agree you're a full citizen, with equivalent rights to those which they enjoy, you eventually have the stark binary choice of submitting to an enslaved state or pursuing the exercise of superior power to compel acceptance.
@Popehat nobody remembers why they still wear the red shirts in Venezuela...
@eljefedsecurit @Popehat because they aren't coming back from the landing party?
@Popehat It's quite possible that the school district fucked up in structuring its policies. It sounds very much that the guy brought the hat in order to be provocative, and if others did counter provocations, the whole thing could quickly blow up. The woman's mistake was to cry, rather than wearing a shirt insulting to Republicans?
@Popehat no one runs anything. No one is in charge.
@Popehat Except MAGA isn't a person, it's a political philosophy. And the hat's being worn by a teacher, whose students presumably include people attacked by the MAGA philosophy.
@msbellows It’s the recognized slogan of a candidate. And note that here the hat wasn’t worn in front of students. It was worn to and from a teacher event and taken off at the event.
@Popehat @msbellows The impression I got from your write up was that it was taken off only to be prominently displayed.
@msbellows @Popehat it’s also the recognized slogan of an attempted insurrection led by said candidate. I’m not at all saying it definitely should be illegal but I think your surprise at the pushback that it’s matter of fact not is curious.
@no1lion99 @msbellows The insurrection subset of the people who wear MAGA garb is very small, much like the subset of people who wear BLM garb who engage in violence or property destruction is quite small.
@Popehat @no1lion99 @msbellows There's a comparison to be made with Germany roughly ninety years ago, but I can't get it together properly now.
@TFFPrisoner @Popehat @no1lion99 @msbellows. The Nazis persecuted their political opponents as well as Jews and queers.
@wbtphdjd @Popehat @no1lion99 @msbellows Yeah - it just irks me when the big numbers voting for Trump get trotted out as a kind of defense. Evidently, a lot of Germans were fine with the cruelty, it doesn't make their political views acceptable just because they were a large chunk of society.
@Popehat @no1lion99 @msbellows but they never condemn it in any meaningful way. Most of them aren't angry that some of their own did something terrible - they're angry that the terrible thing failed.
@Popehat @no1lion99 @msbellows
I'm not sure it IS much like it.
If BLM had a leader, and that leader asked all members of BLM to commit acts of violence and property destruction, it would be closer.
@Popehat @no1lion99 @msbellows have you done a study? I’m serious. Because I think there is a very high correlation between people who support insurrection and wearing of those hats.
@Popehat @msbellows this is I believe quite different then wearing it in the classroom. Wearing a hat inside could be considered in bad taste, but that’s where it stops. He just won’t have people sitting with him, or maybe it’s his way of finding friends, but he should still be allowed to wear it. I wear RBG teeshirts all the time.

@Popehat Perhaps the problem here is an unexpected ambiguity in the terms "acceptable" and "public conduct." What's acceptable in a teachers-only meeting wouldn't necessarily be acceptable in the classroom. And while I agree with the Court that in this case the hat was free speech, I'd argue that "legally protected" ≠ "acceptable" under common social standards (which is why the employee chose to "troll" by wearing the hat to a diversity training in the first place).

I'd call this "legally protected socially revulsive conduct."

@msbellows @Popehat Maga hat wearers are often trying to intimidate those around them. The implication, especially after J6 is that they will get what they want by violence. But given that it was always political, it was inappropriate in a public institution. As would be a Biden or Obama hat or as I said earlier, a Swastika. Both are fascist & stand for violence against marginalized persons. See Bloods, Crips, Hells Angels, OKs, PBs, etc.
@msbellows @Popehat The essence of Maga is that the person supporting it believes they have the Right to take away your rights, use violence to achieve their political goals, and act as gangs/mobs to harass/intimidate others. So, swastika is not too far off.
@Popehat @msbellows oh! That seems to be off limits then. I want to see people wear these things because I want to know what they support. I won’t wear my Joe Biden hat because I no longer think it’s safe. The last election was different in that way too. Nobody put up political signs in my neighborhood.
@Popehat I think it's because when a lot of people see that hat, they don't think, "Oh, it's some person who supports a former president," they think "Oh, that's a person who hates me and wants to hurt me." Particularly after Jan. 6. They don't see it as a hat, they see it as hate speech and wonder why it isn't being regulated that way.

@Popehat For most of this country’s history, more than the equivalent proportion of that 74M voters voted for Jim Crow and Chinese Exclusion laws, sterilization, and euthanasia of undesirables.

That hat is a symbol of the same thing.

You have to wonder why we react viscerally to it?

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@Popehat Wow, I didn’t think the implications of MAGA support flew over your head when you wrote that article. I think the details about dogwhistling and the comparisons with the swastika and the hood and robe have been pretty well stated by others at this point.

Overall, I think regardless of legality, if 47% show support for unquestionably authoritarian and exclusionary ideas and figures, it’s probably a society dangerously close to collapse. Speaking from outside the US btw.

@Popehat You're right, of course. There's just no sane set of rules that allows that.

That said, it's worth remembering that "tens of millions should be treated as outsiders" is a core MAGA value.

@Popehat I think the other aspect of this is the Jan 6 insurrection. It's now clear that event was planned and that Trump intended to retain power despite losing the election.

Some conduct has to suffice outlawry. Insurrection against duly constituted authority, and present expressions of support for such, would seem to qualify.

(Yes, long history of coddling the slaver's rebellion faction as having been sincere and heartfelt. That was a mistake then and it's plausibly enough a mistake now.)

@Popehat We still have statues in public squares honoring traitors and white supremacists. I suppose wearing a MAGA hat is little different than wearing a hat with a confederate battle flag or a swastika on it, which is legal.
@Popehat yeah well we do that with unregistered migrants as a matter of bipartisan policy
@Popehat The people wearing those hats already think the rest of us are worth killing. I am sure you have heard the Thousands of death threats against Democrats, as well as physical attacks. sooo. they should be arrested, fined and sent to a social rehabilitation school
@Popehat
I have to admit, after reading about the decision, I would also be upset at a coworker wearing a MAGA hat at a staff-only cultural sensitivity and racial bias training.
1/3
@Popehat
For the last 6 years or more, we have been subjected to MAGA hatred, racial abuse, name calling & violence, not just from everyday people, but from officials, police officers, medical personnel, governors, congressmen & the former president. All of them embraced the MAGA concept & most
2/3

@Popehat
showed it, constantly & in public, especially the former president.

Any wonder why, if someone not of the MAGA ilk, would seriously worry about anyone, especially an educator(!), who willingly & vehemently wears a MAGA hat, then sues (& wins for gawd's sake)?

Proudly wearing that hat shows one is full of hatred & racial bias, plain & simple.
3/3

@Popehat I think it's scary that 75,000,000 people voted for such an open fascist. That hat was created by him as a symbol of a campaign based on bigoted lies and a desire to create an awful future. Rejecting that is not treating them as second class citizens, it's an attempt to maintain minimum human decency.
@Popehat There is definitely a segment of the population that doesn't know how to deal with people they come across who don't think in a like manner and who may be nasty.
@Popehat I see no difference between a MAGA hat and a swastika or confederate flag.
@Popehat well the dude certainly showed why he needed to be at cultural sensitivity training didn't he
@darwinwoodka Does supporting a candidate who got 75 million votes, 47% of voters, mean you require cultural sensitivity training? This is exactly what I’m talking about.
@Popehat I would assume there were other reasons he was there as well. But he insisted on being an asshole about it, too
@darwinwoodka Would a teacher who wore a Biden hat be an asshole? How about an Obama hat?
@Popehat well probably not, but if they were I would hope they wouldn't generate a lawsuit over it claiming the hat was the only reason they were yelled at.
@Popehat I mean, kids get disciplined on what they wear ALL THE TIME. My son wore a shirt with a cute cat on it that read "mean ass kitty" and a HS teacher took offense at the word "ass" and made hime cover it. He was pissed off, but we didn't sue the school and he didn't wear the shirt again. This guy was obviously using the hat as a provocation, knew it was offensive to some and did it anyway. How is it different? Why did he keep wearing it? It's the behavior that matters, not the hat.
@darwinwoodka Well, pre-college kids are treated differently than adults and adult government employees.
@darwinwoodka If a principal allowed and even encouraged MAGA hats but yelled at a teacher for wearing a Biden hat and threatened them with discipline, that would be a completely legitimate basis for a lawsuit.
@Popehat he wasn't yelled at for wearing a hat. He was yelled at for provoking other people with it. Deliberately, Continuously, after being told to knock it off.
@Popehat I don't care what hat a teacher wears. I care about the example they set. And this guy was an asshole, plain and simple.
@Popehat and the fact he feels he has a RIGHT to be an asshole is why we now have a country where half of us are denied basic rights to our own bodies while two men who treated women like crap are on the SCOTUS.
@darwinwoodka Okay. Are 47% of voting Americans assholes?
@Popehat maybe, I don't know. I know that I don't bother talking to my GOP former friends any more after being told I was "just showing off how educated and politically correct" I was for telling them to stop using the phrase China virus. So yeah, maybe. At any rate that's how we head down the slippery slope, when people feel entitled to display offensive behavior. And how we end up with Trumps as presidents and Thomases and Kavanaughs as SCOTUSes.
@Popehat @darwinwoodka When are Americans not assholes? That's not the bar. You do, however, conflate 47% of Trump voters who mostly do not wear MAGA slogan paraphernalia with persons who may or may not have voted for Trump who do wear MAGA paraphernalia.
@Popehat @darwinwoodka if those hats carried the meaning that anybody who disagreed with their belief deserved terrible things, sure