Mastodawn

Pascale Jan 10, 2023

Gregory J. Rosmaita

As a blind individual, I have to say that #Caturday on #Mastodon is far far more enjoyable then at #Twitter, where the vast majority of cat photos are not described.

It is also been fascinating for me to hear descriptions written by those who sent the image, immediately followed by Apple image recognition’s attempts to describe the same image. Only rarely does that add anything to the ALT, & often directly contradicts it.

There is no auto magical solution to image description. It is something best done by a human, for only that human can explain the “why” of the image: the reason that image was chosen to speak so eloquently without words for those who can see it. ALT allows you to provide those words.

Gregory J. Rosmaita Nov 19, 2022

Plus, the sheep & the ferns!

LaStrega Nov 19, 2022

@oedipusnj I just posted a photo of a Gorgoneion. I know it's not a cat, but it is cool and there's alt text!

LaStrega Nov 19, 2022

@oedipusnj I'd kind of love to hear what apple image recognition did with my Gorgoneion. Also, I'm going to post a cat for you.

Gregory J. Rosmaita Nov 19, 2022

As long as the topic of image description has your attention, I'd like to try & reproduce on Mastodon something I & several other volunteers organized on Twitter. It’s 2 hashtags to assist with image description.

The first is #ALT4me — blind & visually impaired individuals can reply to an image that lacks ALT text with this tag, so that sighted volunteers can then reply with a description. The strength of crowdsourcing this is that each person adds unique details from their own perspective, that when combined, form a detailed & meaningful conception of the image. It also allows one person to give a quick triage description, & then others can fill in details as they see fit.

The 2nd is #ALT4you — if you come across an image that is particularly striking, or one that you believe will quickly become iconic & part of a shared visual imagery/memory, please describe that image & tag it with this tag. This is particularly important during unfolding news stories that quickly break & change, leaving behind indelible visual impressions, that then shape most peoples memory & consciousness of the event. Obviously, for the blind/VI, without a description, search images, no matter how important, remain perceptual and informational black holes.

Thank you all again for the outstanding image description I have encountered so consistently in my limited experience on Mastodon.

Gregory J. Rosmaita Nov 19, 2022

Here is an example of #ALT4me at work from Twitter:

https://twitter.com/oedipusnj/status/1592647460081774592?s=46&t=ZOHVlwSsCHziG07ZnHN32Q

Gregory J. Rosmaita - Web Accessibility Guerrilla on Twitter

“#ALT4me Photographer Alper Yesiltas "used AI" to picture what historical figures would look like if born today. This's his portrait of #HelenKeller Note—unlike all other images i tweet, this 1 has no ALT. I am tweeting it to find out exactly what it contains & how HK's portrayed”

Twitter

grin Nov 20, 2022

@oedipusnj oh interesting: I have not see the original request but I haev seen some of the responses and wondered what are they about. Now that I see the whole picture (pun intended) I understand that a blind person asked for a description, which explains peple trying to describe it.

Steve🏳️‍🌈Nov 19, 2022

@oedipusnj I often forget to add image descriptions, so I greatly appreciate the reminder. Thanks

Gregory J. Rosmaita Nov 19, 2022

@gaysteve what's needed is an alt reminder prompt, that will detect that alt is missing & prompt you to add it before you post. Right now the only reminder I know of is a bot you can subscribe to, which will alert you when you forget to add an image description, so you can then reply to the original message with an image description.

(HT @nickmartin)

https://botsin.space/@PleaseCaption

Please Caption Bot (@[email protected])

6 Posts, 8.59K Following, 12K Followers · A bot that reminds you to caption your toots' images and videos

botsin.space

Vireo olivaceus 🇺🇦Nov 20, 2022

@oedipusnj @nickmartin @gaysteve Some Mastodon apps remind about alt text. The Metatext app for iOS (@metabolist - App Store: https://apps.apple.com/app/metatext/id1523996615?mt=8) labels uploaded images during message composition as Uncaptioned. Tapping on the image opens a box to enter alt text. This app has some other nice features, too, eg works with screen readers for #accessibility

Metatext App - App Store

Download Metatext by Metabolist on the App Store. See screenshots, ratings and reviews, user tips, and more games like Metatext.

App Store

Sarah Nov 19, 2022

@oedipusnj Thanks for taking the time to write this. The ability to add an image description is not something I’ve come across before but I shall make sure I add a good one when I post. I’ll also follow the #ALT4me hashtag to see if I can help.

Roman Yeremenko Nov 19, 2022

@oedipusnj Thank you for a reminder. It brought back memories about one thread on a forum dedicated to a game "Dwarf Fortress" where a visually impaired player described their experience, and how deeply I was influenced by that. In fact, it was among the reasons for me to start making one of my game development projects, specifically, a fully procedurally generated role-playing game with narrative textual interface (for both input and output). Lest I forget.

Christy S Nov 19, 2022

@oedipusnj Oh my gosh, i love this idea! I didn't know about it on twitter but will totally follow those two hashtags.

Once More Into the Breach Nov 19, 2022

@oedipusnj How would #Alt4You work here, since we don't do quote toots? As a reply? Should we capture the link and make our own toot with #AltText? I've been adding descriptions in some stuff this latter way but of course without the hashtag. . . .

Gregory J. Rosmaita Nov 19, 2022

@LowlyAdjunct both methods have been employed, depending on which is more comfortable for the describer.

On mastodon, given the lack of a means of visibly exposing ALT natively, I think a text reply is best, for alt text can help anyone with visual acuity of less than 20/200, which in the US is the legal definition blindness. One advantage of this is that when the description is rendered as a normal post, those with some usable vision will then be able to use the description either as a substitute for, or as a guide through, the image which they cannot clearly see, or can only process via a very constrained viewport when the description is displayed using the same custom rendering settings they use to interact with their device, many while using high levels of magnification.

ALT text has also been shown to be beneficial for those with certain cognitive processing issues/difficulties, by guiding them through the intended flow of a complex image, chart, or even a meme.

So I would council replying to a request and describing the image in the body of posts using the hashtag. This should not leave as large a thumbprint on the timeline as it used to on Twitter, given the current character limits on Mastodon, which, as far as I can tell, are 1000 chars on a post and 1500 chars on ALT

Vireo olivaceus 🇺🇦Nov 20, 2022

@LowlyAdjunct @oedipusnj My visual acuity with special glasses is supposedly good (with effort), but I have under 1/4 of the typical good field of view. I also have a lot of trouble with low contrast/colour coding/seeing small but important details that I do not expect. Alt text really helps me to understand charts, graphs and some photos/visual art, and reduces eye strain from starting at images, trying to understand/not miss something. #accessibility #NAION

Callalily@tootcat💙💛😺Nov 19, 2022

@oedipusnj
I think those are wonderful ideas.

calebjasik Nov 19, 2022

@oedipusnj followed #ALT4me!

Superfreq Nov 19, 2022

@oedipusnj
You can also mention "@imagecaptionspls" to have your request for image description boosted by a bot that gets followed by people willing to help out.
You can also follow the bot "@PleaseCaption" to be reminded if you post an image without any caption

MiriPiri Nov 20, 2022

@oedipusnj @imagecaptionspls @Superfreq @PleaseCaption So, what should I do if I see an image I want to boost but it has no alt text? Do I boost anyway? Ask the person to alt text it or can I alt text it myself?

leah & tigers & bears, oh my!Nov 20, 2022

@miripiri @oedipusnj @imagecaptionspls @Superfreq @PleaseCaption what i usually do is reply with an image description, maybe with an "image desc" or "transcription" CW

Fuck Elon Musk Nov 20, 2022

@miripiri @oedipusnj @imagecaptionspls
I'm new here, but on Twitter, I'd save the image then post it as a comment to the original with alt text added.

Gregory J. Rosmaita Nov 20, 2022

@imagecaptionspls @Superfreq @miripiri @PleaseCaption

My approach would be to contact the original poster, informing them of the need for alt & how easy Mastodon makes it to add, before boosting. At the same time, you can explain that your next reply will be a description, added to provide the blind/VI with an equivalent experience of the original toot.

It is up to you whether you simply want to reply in plain text and describe the image in the body of a reply, or if you want to illustrate to the person who failed to use alt text the proper use of alt text, you could re-post it as an image with alt added.

I hope this answers your question.

Bias 🔞Nov 20, 2022

@oedipusnj @imagecaptionspls @Superfreq @miripiri @PleaseCaption

I would also keep in mind the fact that some disabled people /can't/ write image descriptions. I personally can write short, quick ones or transcribe text, but only when I have enough spoons (energy, basically).

It's SO important to respond to no-alt-text posts with compassion and care. No one should have to disclose a disability to avoid being shamed for something they may not be able to do.

Just reply with alt text if you can.

Superfreq Nov 20, 2022

@biasto_bias @oedipusnj @miripiri
I completely agree. This is why I generally only make #ImageDescription requests to big users who post allot, especially those who are verified or have recognizable names. Even then I make sure never to be demanding about it, and I try to help them understand how to do it in an approachable way. I never expect perfection. When it's a smaller user I usually just ask the community at large for help, using the previously mentioned tag and group. And I would do the same for anyone who isn't always able to add #AltText to their stuff but who's content I'd really love to see anyway. So if I reply to your post with a request for some crowdsourced description help, please don't feel like I'm throwing shade your way for not doing it your self. If you can't, you should never feel ashaimed.

Bias 🔞Nov 21, 2022

@Superfreq @oedipusnj @miripiri Thank you so much. I’d never be offended by someone replying with a polite, non-shaming request for others to describe something I couldn’t!

I’m a writer, not an artist/photographer/etc., so it’s probably not going to be super relevant to me specifically, but if I ever posted something without alt text and also forgot to tag the image descriptions group for help, I would /want/ anyone who needed a description to tag others with a description request. ❤️

Bias 🔞Nov 21, 2022

@Superfreq @oedipusnj @miripiri I do actually think it’s okay and good to reply to someone with a request for them to add alt text, even if they’re a smaller user! Just as long as you keep in mind that they may have posted without alt text due to not actually being able to add it.

It’s true that many people just need to be asked, and given a quick explanation of how to do it and why it’s important! I just worry about the other people, the ones who know it’s important but /can’t/ do it.

Superfreq Nov 21, 2022

@biasto_bias @oedipusnj @miripiri
Thought about what you said, and I think a good compromise is to make the request in a DM unless they are a bigger organization like Ars Technica or The Onion. That way, if they can't do it, they don't have to say so in front of everyone or feel pressured into agreeing.

Bias 🔞Nov 21, 2022

@Superfreq @oedipusnj @miripiri oh, that’s a really good idea! On here, you can even reply to an individual post as a DM/mentioned-users-only toot. I think that would make things so much more comfortable for everyone.

Although I think some people have messages turned off for strangers.

Gregory J. Rosmaita Nov 23, 2022

@PleaseCaption @biasto_bias @miripiri @imagecaptionspls @Superfreq I wholeheartedly agree. Do your best at the time you post the image. Just a very bare-bones description, if you can.

If, for whatever reason, you can't generate a description, or feel that your bare bones description needs expansion, you can always tag the image #alt4me to have a group of volunteers describe it for you.

This is another reason why #alt4me was established. To allow those who cannot themselves generate alt to still generate accessible content through the agency of volunteers.

Bias 🔞Nov 23, 2022

@oedipusnj Thank you. I know, and it's very cool that these tags and groups are set up to help people! I'll do my best to remember to use them if I ever need them. (I don't post images much.)

I only worry that people may respond to posts missing image descriptions with the assumption that the original poster could easily add a description themself. Some of us can't, or can't always. It's not easy for /everyone/, and the wording of us "failing" to add a description made me feel a little sad. :(

Gregory J. Rosmaita Nov 23, 2022

@biasto_bias One of our hopes is that by tagging your own image with #alt4me, the tag itself will quickly come to mean, "could not provide description, asking for assistance" without using up so many characters.

The point isn't to shame anybody—the point is to enhance accessibility & to plug perceptual & informational black holes via crowd-sourcing. It's an exercise in mutual aid/assistance.

Bias 🔞Nov 23, 2022

@oedipusnj Yes, I think that tag is great!

My worry is about responses to people who /don't/ use that tag or tag the "captions please" group. A disabled person who is unable to write an image description may not know that the tag or group exists, or they may forget about them due to one of their disabilities.

I have memory problems myself and may forget to tag an undescribed post. I worry that someone will respond, if I do that, in a way that shames me for not adding a description. :(

Gregory J. Rosmaita Nov 23, 2022

@biasto_bias The presence of the #alt4me tag in a post containing an undescribed image should be perceived as a no-fault declaration that—while not able to add a description at the time of posting—this image has been tagged for description, all without having to explain yourself or use a lot of characters.

Bias 🔞Nov 24, 2022

@oedipusnj Yes. I understand that, and it is good that that tag exists.

Again, my worry is for undescribed posts that /do not/ contain that tag, potentially due to someone not knowing that it exists, or due to someone /forgetting/ that it exists due to disability.

Gregory J. Rosmaita Nov 24, 2022

@biasto_bias This has just been added to the fedi.tips section "How do I make posts more accessible to blind people?"

"Note that sometimes an image may have no description but there is an #Alt4Me tag added to it by the poster. It may be that the poster is unable to add a description (for example due to having a disability themselves), but is aware that one is needed so they have pre-emptively added the tag."

Using the tag for this situation is going to take a while to percolate through the community. However, with the assistance of fedi.tips, other mastodon documentation projects & how-tos, and you, and me, and others spreading the word, it's meaning will quickly become known.

Bias 🔞Nov 24, 2022

@oedipusnj Yes, that tag is very good, and I hope that many people use it and it gains popularity.

But again, my worry is for posts that /do not/ contain that tag. There will always be undescribed posts that do not contain that tag, even if a lot of people do use it. For example, people with memory issues, like me, may forget to use it.

I don't think I'm successfully communicating with you. I'm sorry, but I don't think there are any ways left to rephrase what I'm trying to say.

Eagle Eyed Nov 20, 2022

@oedipusnj may i suggest as well that this could extend to audio, for deaf indeviduals. With the ability to add alt texts for audio and video files i think this would be a good way to extend the reach to those with other disabilities.

Cassandra Nov 20, 2022

@blind_lightning @oedipusnj
Yes please! I'm not Deaf, but I really struggle with audio files or videos that aren't captioned. I usually just skip over them entirely. Alt text on those would be life changing!

Gregory J. Rosmaita Nov 20, 2022

@blind_lightning Yes, that is an excellent idea.

It would not only be of invaluable assistance to the deaf & hard-of-hearing, but to those who are blind/VI and/or have certain cognitive processing issues, as well.

In the case of captioning that's in a different natural language than the spoken natural language, a transcript of the entire caption track will be essential for many to review the contents in isolation, without audio interference.

The only issue I believe we need to discuss before merging the 2 efforts is whether we want to keep one tag dedicated to static images, & another tag dedicated to animated images and videos. The tags i've proposed for video & animated images are: #desc4me (request) and #desc4you (unsolicited)

Thank you again for bringing this issue to the forefront. I eagerly anticipate your feedback.

John M Flores Nov 20, 2022

@oedipusnj Fellow #writer / #writers of the Fediverse, if you are looking for writing prompts while simultaneously assisting the blind and visually impaired, follow the #ALT4me hashtag and add descriptive #ALT text to photos that do not have it.

I've enjoyed the challenge of describing a photo or painting with words. It makes me a better observer and writer. Try it!

Jan Thie Nov 20, 2022

@JohnMFlores @oedipusnj

Hi, whenever I upload a photo, the opportunity to type text inside the photo frame appears. I just type a description there and post it afterwards. Is that not the way to do it?

(Sorry, I had just posted this reply but forgot to turn it from private to public. I have tried to change the default setting into public four or five times already in Settings but that doesn't work. No idea why. Sorry for my clumsiness.)

John M Flores Nov 20, 2022

@Jantar @oedipusnj That's exactly the way to do it!

LaStrega Nov 20, 2022

@JohnMFlores @oedipusnj
I don't see a way to get notified if someone posts #alt4me
Any idea if it's possible, or should I just do a search?

Flominator Dec 19, 2022

@LaStrega
You can follow the hashtag. Maybe teaching to use groups like @imagecaptionspls or @alt4me would also help
@JohnMFlores @oedipusnj

LaStrega Dec 19, 2022

@Flominator I followed the hashtag. I get nothing. I think it has to pop up on your local server for it to work. So at this point, I just do a search.

Flominator Dec 19, 2022

@LaStrega
Yes, it is like that: https://genealysis.social/@Flominator/109539085735595424
You can of course search at a bigger instance, like mastodon.social, then you find more

Flominator (@[email protected])

Is there any documentation/chart how #hashtags are propagated over instances? I would assume they just come naturally with the posts and are only a way to search/aggregate them. #mastodonHelp #question

Genealysis.social

LaStrega Dec 19, 2022

@Flominator Yes, that's what I've been doing. Thanks.

Gregory J. Rosmaita Dec 19, 2022

@Flominator @LaStrega from this point forward I'm going to tag my requests with both the hashtag and the account, in order to get the maximum exposure so that I can get the information I need in as expeditious a manner as possible.

｜霜の狼｜人面獣心」🐺❄️Nov 20, 2022

@oedipusnj I think the "hey please come describe this" is already a thing, might be using different tags! "PleaseCaption" comes to mind (though that might've just been the name of a reminder bot). No need to shorten tags like the "4" thing here. :3 There's also definitely a -style emoji or two floating around for this.

And critters going behind and describing others' images is also a thing – but really you /shouldn't/ tag those, because they might not want it to be findable.

Gregory J. Rosmaita Nov 20, 2022

1) I don't consider requesting a description or transcription of an image posted in a public space to be "going behind" someone's back. If the image contains something a person does not want found out, they should not be posting that image in public the first place

2) the emoji you used is a custom rolled emoji which lacks the default text label programmatically associated with a Unicode emoji, which is what makes Unicode emojis natively accessible if you are using a Unicode aware device in a Unicode aware screen reader or refreshable braille display. That custom emoji, while it may be intended to invoke a response to increase accessibility, is itself inaccessible

3) ultimately, the tag is irrelevant. #alt4me & #alt4you are short, but if there are other pre-existing tags, the effort can always be merged to operate under a single tag. Whichever one that is immaterial to me as long as people know whatever the ultimate tag decided upon means & use it.

4) "PleaseCaption" is a bot that will tell you when you have posted an image without alt.

｜霜の狼｜人面獣心」🐺❄️Nov 20, 2022

@oedipusnj Do custom emoji not simply get read out as the shortcode? It definitely shows the shortcode on hover, so I thought it was alted or at least titled.

if not then /huh/.

｜霜の狼｜人面獣心」🐺❄️Nov 20, 2022

@oedipusnj also on tagging without consent, I was thinking more of the "ALT4you" one. Asking for a description isn't bad.

And just because something's on the public timeline does /not/ equate to consent to be found through search; this isn't twitter. (If someone comes through and adds tags to a post I wrote without asking I am liable to nip them. :3)

ahimsa Nov 21, 2022

@oedipusnj @frostwolf

I just found a #FediTips link (Mastodon and Fediverse Accessibility Tips) that recommends the #Alt4Me and #Alt4You hashtags. I think that means those tags are already well established here.

https://fedi.tips/mastodon-and-fediverse-accessibility-tips/

Mastodon and Fediverse Accessibility Tips | Fedi.Tips – An Unofficial Guide to Mastodon and the Fediverse

An unofficial guide to using Mastodon and the Fediverse

John M Flores Nov 21, 2022

@ahimsa_pdx @oedipusnj @frostwolf Interesting! But if you search the hashtags, the earliest results are from yesterday. Is there a chance that #FediTips was just updated?

No matter, as long as they are used, that's the important thing.

ahimsa Nov 21, 2022

@JohnMFlores @oedipusnj @frostwolf

I'm new here - no idea! 🤷🏻‍♀️

I didn't see a date. Maybe that page is new? I figured it was something that had been here a while.

Maybe @feditips can answer?

Maleficurious Nov 20, 2022

@oedipusnj Pursuant to this, do we know if such descriptive text can be added to one's profile pic and banner image?

teleute Nov 20, 2022

@oedipusnj In case you hadn't encountered it (apologies if you're familiar already) - another resource is this PleaseCaption bot - https://botsin.space/@PleaseCaption

If you subscribe to it, it gives you a reminder to add a caption if you post an image without one. It's super handy to help those of us newer to captioning build the habit.

Please Caption Bot (@[email protected])

6 Posts, 8.59K Following, 12K Followers · A bot that reminds you to caption your toots' images and videos

botsin.space