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Kashmir HillAfter the report about the Girl Scout mom getting booted from Radio City Music Hall, I spent the last two days reporting out the use of facial recognition technology by the Madison Square Garden empire to keep hundreds of lawyers that work for firms that have sued it from attending concerts, sporting events and shows. It is a radical use of the technology by a private company and I am truly shocked by how forthright MSG is about its real-world block list. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/22/nyregion/madison-square-garden-facial-recognition.html
One thing that struck me about Madison Square Garden using facial recognition technology to boot lawyers out is that it's been happening for months and the lawyers didn't realize exactly how novel it was to have their faces on a watchlist. People are sometimes on the cutting edge of something but they don't realize it because they already thought the world was that far down the path.
msgbi
Jakob von Lindern@kashhill I think about this phenomenon a lot because I believe one reason for it is that tech reporting (my own included of course) has too often mixed what is and what would could be. As important as it is to write about how technologies could impact the world, I think it's important to make clear where a technology stands in a given moment. I try to put more thought into making that distinction in my reporting.
Pinkfatrabbit@kashhill I find it fascinating, how naive people have been, when they have given tons of personal data (photos of faces) to tech companies over the last 15 years. And now they realize it was a stupid idea!
TransitBiker
Heraty LawWith that ânoticeâ they make people like Nicolette Landi sign:
What does it mean that they will take all necessary steps to enforce the notice?
What does âenforcementâ of the notice mean, other than not letting them into the venue (which theyâre already doing)?
@kashhill refâing to this:
https://twitter.com/kashhill/status/1606085365382516736?s=20&t=6pDTQzFJfcBR4tTiHHzmHw
Kashmir Hill on Twitter
âNicolette Landi went to 6 events at Madison Square Garden in October. Then her law firm put her photo up on its site. When she tried to attend a Mariah Carey concert last week, security guards pulled her aside, saying her face was on a watchlist. https://t.co/DAWGGp6x0Iâ
@heratylaw good question to which I don't have an answer at the moment
Owen@kashhill I understand facial rec for law enforcement, but for MSG using it so a child canât watch something is ludicrous.
Roadskater, Ph.D.@Bostonsports @kashhill The child got in. Mom had to hang out outside until the show was over.
Carl Juneau@kashhill -- It speaks to a basic misunderstanding of the role of lawyers in the judicial system. Disgusting.
John Allsopp@kashhill what do artists think about their customers and fans being turned away by a subcontractor? What happens the first Taylor Swift concert when this occurs? Plus of all the groups Iâd target for punitive action lawyers would be WAY down the list
Cykonot@johnallsopp @kashhill this comment will be placed on your PERMANENT RECORD
@johnallsopp seriously missed opportunity by me to get comment from Mariah Carey
@kashhill sheâs usually not shy of publicity but maybe not this time?
Twinkle Twinkle@kashhill @johnallsopp Maybe it helps with stalkers, too
Joseph Kohlmann@kashhill One imagines theyâre so forthright because they believe this is a reasonable and justified application of the technology, which is nearly its own story
Diego Dieterich@kashhill absolutely absurd đ¨
Dan Hugo@kashhill has Elon seen this yet?
Particle Man Gary@kashhill couldn't NYC put some pressure on Dolan to stop this nonsense? The Garden's operating permit expires next year and there are a lot of people who would like to see it moved.
Kevan@kashhill @kristinHenry I had to fight with that page to read the article, they kept popping up a âplease subscribeâ message at first. But I guess this just means law firms shouldn't have their staff photos on their websites, at least right now.
JLab8@kashhill any chance you could follow up with Illinois state officials/lawyers to see how this would fly under BIPA, as well as California officials re: CCPA? Would be illustrative of the need for legislation and how far the legislation needs to go.
Packy Anderson@kashhill They're being forthright about it because they want lawyers to know that if their firm represents someone suing MSG, they won't be able to attend any events at MSG venues. It's a way for MSG to impose a cost to litigation that lawyers have to pay for, not their clients.
@kashhill what is scary to me is how they got the photos of everyone at that lawfirm, loaded it into their database to cross reference, just in case they come to an event there.
If i was an employee of that lawfirm, I would feel violated, that they had my image. It is so creepy and just wrong
If i was an employee of that lawfirm, I would feel violated, that they had my image. It is so creepy and just wrong
Carl Gehrman@kashhill Questions I didn't see addressed in this article - does MSG refund the ticket price? Would they reissue and allow you to resell (if this happens after ticket scan, resale may not be possible without intervention)? What if you paid an elevated price through the resale market? If this guy doesn't like being sued, this all seems counterproductive.
News For The Hard of Thinking
NLAWScametovisit@kashhill also its a terrible building. i hate the architecture.
Steven Bodzin@kashhill Thanks for writing this! As I wrote earlier https://thepit.social/@stevenbodzin/109561056930325358 : I think we owe MSG a thank you. Because walking around NYC, with its omnipresent security cameras, both public and private, I'm sure there are forces that track individuals. But they hide their use of facial recognition, instead finding pretexts in order to stop suspects. MSG was honest, revealing something that is probably happening all the time.
Steven Bodzin, pun-crocker (@[email protected])
@[email protected] #MissedQuoteBoost The more I think about this, the more I think we owe MSG a thank you. Because walking around NYC, with its omnipresent security cameras, both public and private, I'm sure there are forces that track individuals. But they hide their use of facial recognition, instead finding pretexts in order to stop suspects. MSG was honest, revealing something that is probably happening all the time.
Tnarg42@kashhill Regardless of any techno-creepiness related to the facial recognition technology, I can't help but feel this is just straight up NYC egotism. The whole "I got mine, now I'm going to take it out of you" spite that seems to permeate NYC business culture. It got humbled and toned down a bit after 9/11, but now it seems to be tolerated again. Thanks, but I'll just avoid the whole scene....
Andrew Lehman@kashhill Orwellian evil use of facial recognition technology by a corporationâMadison Square Garden enterprises & Radio Vity Music Hall
diphenhydramine 
@kashhill do you know where i could read more about the policeâs use of facial recognition and other surveillance technology? i feel far more concerned about that and they barely touched on it.
Eddie Dinel
Jefe@edinel DING, DING, DING, DING! DING!!!!!!
@kashhill Oooph, saw the article. Did not think to check the byline. Thanks for loading up on the examples.
The Dolans, feh.
@kashhill But frankly, I'd like to know whether MSG repays the victims' ticket costs? Or just giving them a big FY, and "sue me"?
Amanda Wasielewski@kashhill âreal-world block listâ *itâs happening.gif*
Alakest@kashhill wait til airlines do this. Then hospitals. And make mistakes.
But your bank. They'd never disrespect you, right?
Paul Wintz@kashhill Somebody should pass out pictures of banned people's faces to MSG attendees to overwhelm the face recognition software with false positives.
SDK_Resists@kashhill WOW, I didn't know private companies had access to this. How is THIS legal? đ¤
Sir David Nielsen@kashhill aside being extremely chilling, this means that they will take peopleâs money for ticket, then turn them away at the gate for being âknown lawyersâ, which is essentially theft.
Someone should sue them⌠oh I have an idea.
Someone should sue them⌠oh I have an idea.
Wub-Fur Internet Radio@kashhill Iâm wondering what the musicians, actors, athletes, etc. who appear at MSG venues think about this sort of petty yet evil and Orwellian corporate misbehavior. They should be asked (might make a good story).
John MacKinnon@kashhill Excellent piece. Obviously the vindictive Dolan was just getting warmed up when he had Oakley ejected. Strange business model.
Ann Lipton@kashhill
I have to reiterate that this policy was reported by Law360 a few months ago, when attorneys suing MSG over a merger were barred from attending events. Chancellor McCormick denied the plaintiffs discovery on the ban because it was unrelated to the pending litigation, but also called it "the stupidest thing I've ever read"
https://www.law360.com/articles/1546343/chancery-bars-queries-on-madison-square-garden-atty-ban
I have to reiterate that this policy was reported by Law360 a few months ago, when attorneys suing MSG over a merger were barred from attending events. Chancellor McCormick denied the plaintiffs discovery on the ban because it was unrelated to the pending litigation, but also called it "the stupidest thing I've ever read"
https://www.law360.com/articles/1546343/chancery-bars-queries-on-madison-square-garden-atty-ban
Chancery Bars Queries On Madison Square Garden Atty Ban - Law360
Shareholders who sued Madison Square Garden Entertainment Corp. over a 2021 merger may not question its in-house counsel about a company policy that bars attorneys from law firms litigating with the company from attending events at its entertainment venues, a Delaware chancellor said Thursday.
rag. Gustavino BevilacquaFalse positives in facial recognition will create legions of Archibald Buttle.
Brazil (1985, Terry Gilliam) - Mistake? Haha. We don't make mistakes.
Brazil by Terry Gilliam. Government mixes up Tuttle and Buttle.
Tom Jacob@kashhill lawyers on this list should ask for an in person inspection of the premises next time they have a case. Would be interesting to see the MSG lawyers explain this to a court.
Carl@kashhill Penalised by conputers for doing your job? Can this ever be seen as anything but terrifying?
peaceFromAbove@kashhill when totalitarian rule comes to America, it will be carried by businesses and wrapped in the first amendment
Rich Seymour@kashhill I went to a concert at MSG a month or so after 9/11. IIRC they handed out or widely posted âwanted if seenâ posters with a sketch of a terrorist who might attack. This feels similar to me only aided by tech and surprisingly effective. A false positive would be news to me, but oddly in this case a person could probably prove they werenât the lawyer in question with an ID card. An unnamed âterroristâ look a like couldnât. Not saying this is cool or good, but itâs normal and more targeted than past attempts.
Overwhelmedhippie@kashhill We must pay attention to this. Facial recognition technology can take discrimination to the another level.
Insubstantial Pageant@kashhill
Nice write-up, Kashmir, thanks!
Do you know if this is Clearview A.I. tech or something else?
Nice write-up, Kashmir, thanks!
Do you know if this is Clearview A.I. tech or something else?
@Baseless_Fabric I am still trying to figure out who the vendor is. MSG did not want to say, for security reasons.
kalizoid313đ§ When all this tech that I loved in SF books and movies comes true--I really hate the tech and how it works out in the world.