James ScholesAs a #ScreenReader user, I find #hashtags at the end of a post to be suboptimal. As I'm unable to visually scan, I don't know that you haven't written anything after the hashtags, and hence have to choose between: listening to them anyway, or being okay with potentially missing content. When written inline within the flow of your text, this problem doesn't occur. #accessibility #a11y
Of course, not all appropriate #hashtags will fit into the body, such as #accessibility and #a11y within my previous post. But a few relevant hashtags tacked onto the end is a lot better than duplication. #ScreenReader
Brandon@jscholes I just don't like it when people put like 5 hashtags in a row , in the middle. I think I'm coming down on that side generally, though.
Grant 
@jscholes I donβt think we can win either way. What this post has told me is that all the other posts asking for hashtags to be at the end (because of the way screen readers read them out) is just a personal preference of the reader. #hashtags #accessibility #disability
@Grant It absolutely is, and many of the users who prefer it that way have a valid reason for doing so. Namely, the fact that each hashtag turns into a focusable link or #VoiceOver action, which can bury actual linked URLs within a post (client depending).
Either way, the attention being paid to different user experiences is heartening, as are all of the textual descriptions being added to images! I've read some beautiful alt text on Mastodon in recent days, and that is personally far more important to me than hashtag positioning. #accessibility #a11y #disability
UnderwaterSomething he\theyThanks, that explanation makes sense. I've read a bunch of different opinions and I was unsure.
Hippo π@jscholes I never thought of it this way! But in general I do tend to make #hashtags inline (when I remember to use them at all) so I guess that works π
Anyway, when I started reading your post, for some reason I assumed it would say "please keep hashtags at the end", so this was a new way of seeing it.
As for hashtags in the middle of the post: why would anyone do that? That's weird π
Olivia McCabe@jscholes That's good to know. Thanks, James. My stepfather has impaired vision. We haven't persuaded him to use a screenreader yet but he will probably need to eventually.
(((Pro-choice Morgana)))@jscholes Thank you for the tip.
Ligia Morris@jscholes I read the exact opposite today! Now this is confusing..
@tat2dfarmlady Just like the wider world, screen reader users are varied in approaches to consuming content, and their resulting preferences. I only speak for myself. I provided some ideas about why other screen reader users might like it the other way on my timeline, but please know that your efforts to post readable and accessible content are appreciated no matter which way around you position your hashtags.
Rabbi Jill Zimmerman@tat2dfarmlady @jscholes thanks James. I also read the exact opposite today. I do want to do my best to make my posts accessible to all.
Flaming June@tat2dfarmlady @jscholes I was thinking the same about the wider world as I read this thread. I dislike blocks of hashtags at the end of a post, myself, but I know others prefer them that way.
@jscholes thank you!
Fanua π@tbluvoter Thanks for letting us know. π π
LaPingvino π 
@jscholes maybe if you end up following a hashtag at the end strategy it helps to mark as such, e.g. "hashtags:" or "endmatter:", so you know you can safely skip.
@lapingvino Interesting idea! Personally, my desktop Mastodon client places image descriptions (also known as alt text) after the main body of a post. So I would still personally continue to listen out for those.
@jscholes maybe it's an idea to add a configuration to Mastodon that "flattens" hashtags for accessibility and lists them under a hashtag overview button #accessibility #innovation for #mastodon
@lapingvino Sounds like a great idea; I am a big fan of usability-related preferences within products. Of note is that many screen reader users rely on third party clients to access Mastodon, though.
@jscholes if it's in the settings you can probably make sure the API sees a flattened view of the message and a link towards the hashtag list. if the API provides it this way, all third party clients support it passively because it has been provided that way.
Fabiana Kubke@jscholes Thank you - someone had posted some time ago to put the hashtags at the bottom to make it easier for screen readers - so this is very useful to know. Thank you
Donna Yates@kubke @jscholes I saw that post too. I want to do right by people using screen readers. Do you think it ultimately comes down to personal preference for each screen reader user? I can see someone not wanting to hear "hashtag" over and over in a sentence but, thinking about it, that's part of the context of the sentence. Part of the experience.
@Drdonnayates @kubke It definitely comes down to personal preference, and I only speak for myself. Keep in mind, though, that many screen readers and speech synthesisers won't actually say the word "hashtag". Mine, for instance, reads "pound" before each one (the name of the symbol), which is only a single syllable. Some users will have the symbol muted altogether.
I posted something on my timeline about why other users may rather see the hashtags at the end, if you're interested. Regardless of the approach you choose, your efforts to post accessible and readable content are heartening and appreciated. Thank you for caring!
Ferrous@jscholes I really miss the days of separate tag fields. It's great to see Cohost uses those, though I'm not sure about the site for other reasons.
KayhrynTinkIt appears to craft a thread amenable to preferences - search a hashtag to find like-minded peeps & follow them
The seems to be the secret to better/more content!
anlomedad@jscholes
Ah okay.
I consciously decided to put my bunch of relevant hashtags at the end rather than using # in the text itself. Because of better read flow.
But your information now has me rethink: I'll make sure to not add normal text afterwards and to begin my bunch of hashtags with the line:
Only hashtags follow:
#SomeHashtag #AnotherHashtag
#EndOfToot
Steve Bowbrick@jscholes Fascinating, thank you. Sounds like Iβve been doing this wrong - putting hashtags (and emojis) at the end of a tweet/toot so user can skip them but didnβt occur to me that it might not be obvious that thereβs no more content to come
@bowbrick Screen reader users are varied in their personal preferences and I only speak for myself. More importantly, you are taking an interest in how a wide range of audiences consume your posts, which is incredibly thoughtful and refreshing. So "wrong" is not quite how I'd put it :)
@jscholes I run social accounts for a broadcaster in the UK. Weβre trying to make our social content as accessible as our online/broadcast content. All insights welcome!
peter sabaini@jscholes thanks, TIL!
Dr. Young-Leslie π¨π¦
was B (this is my old account)@jscholes maybe we could use a hashtag to represent βend of narrative post/beginning of hashtags?β
I could certainly label my hashtags at the end because I definitely do some of that.
@b_cavello Interesting idea! Personally, my desktop Mastodon client places image descriptions (also known as alt text) after the main body of a post. So I would still personally continue to listen out for those.
@jscholes ahh, thatβs good to know! Thanks for elaborating!
Bill Bittner (he/him)@jscholes How about at the beginning?
Also, when I create a CW, I put hashtags of what the post is about in the title.
Also, when I create a CW, I put hashtags of what the post is about in the title.
@billybitts A group of hashtags at the beginning of the post would, I think, be difficult for many people to deal with, and greatly decrease the readability of the content. Unless they are just words within your post that you've turned into inline hashtags.
@jscholes interesting. I thought having 3-4 at the beginning enables you to know what the post is about so you can decide to read it or not. Or, can screen readers search for all the hashtags that are in the text naturally and read them first?
@billybitts They can't currently do that, no. I would personally rather start reading the natural text of a post, then give up half way through, than have to wade through hashtags at the start of each one.
@jscholes
That makes sense. If the post is well written, the beginning of it should give the reader an idea what it's about.
That makes sense. If the post is well written, the beginning of it should give the reader an idea what it's about.
mara@jscholes @billybitts The last time I tested it, hashtags in the CW didnβt work, but they did in the hidden part.
@jscholes That's a really interesting point that I hadn't thought about before. I think having them in the sentence flow makes more sense anyway.
FeminazgΓ»l@jscholes
Thanks for the info, and also i heard that individual words within hashtags should be capitalised, is that correct?
Thanks for the info, and also i heard that individual words within hashtags should be capitalised, is that correct?
@SheonaG Indeed it is; makes them much easier to read!
Antiqueight@jscholes Is it ok if there's only one hashtag at the end - I know you can't tell that in advance but at least you aren't having to listen through a list - by ok I mean is that relatively non intrusive - for when the tag doesn't quite FIT with the text?
@Antiqueight Definitely! Not all hashtags will naturally fit into the flow of your text, at which point there is no problem placing some at the end for visibility. That is a practice I follow myself.
Charly Hamlyn Ceramics π΄σ §σ ’σ ³σ £σ ΄σ Ώ@jscholes I tend to use a mixture of both. If the word works in the flow of my text, then I tend hashtag it. Others go at the end but they are more so people can find my posts. As a 'creative', you don't know what people will search with, so you try to have a few tags that people are likely to use to find you, they go at the end.
DefilerWyrm 
@jscholes Good to know. I'll try to adjust my usage! I'm trying to remember to use caps at the start of each word in multi-word tags, too, as I recall reading that this makes things much easier with screen readers.
HRH ginsterbusch@jscholes That has been my feeling ever since - that #hashtags should be part of the normal text flow, and not dropped like bombs at the end.
I guess its a necessary thing on platforms like Instagram, where things dont display much or just fall under the rails (however that saying goes), but then people just take it over to non-image focused sites - et voila! Dropping bombs.
Drew@jscholes Does it help if the content is described before hashtags? like if I share a link to youtube and provide a brief description of the video then say this is a link to youtube. followed by hashtag music (just as an example). would that help avoid the hashtag wall that some people post on here?
I will write them inline if I use hashtags (though I do not use them very often). I was just curious.
@dharmadischarge It wouldn't help me, personally. The destination of a link should be obvious from its URL and surrounding text. You can include something like "(YouTube)" after the name/text of the post, if you want to make it explicit, although I view that as separate from any approach to hashtags.
@jscholes oh ok and I understand now. thank you.
Jason R. Patton@jscholes thank you for helping me be better!
hobo π¬@jscholes thank you for telling us, i actually had no idea screen readers worked like that!
Sciences, Flute π 
#Mastodon #FeatureRequest : an additional message field for supplementary hashtags, to help #ScreenReader users, or have the etiquette mention that indexing hashtags at the end of a message should be prefixed with "For ref:" or equivalent.
Jason Goroncy@jscholes Thank you, James. Like so many others new to this space, I've been on a learning curve with this and am committed to pursuing best practice. Is your preference with this quite typical? I ask because I've read screen reader users arguing for hashtags at the end of a post as preferred.
@jscholes Hi again, James. I've just spotted the thread. Very helpful. No need to reply to my previous post. Cheers.
@jasongoroncy No worries! I don't know which pattern would come out on top in a poll/user study, although anecdotally the inline approach I favour seems more popular on my timeline.
RMR@jscholes
Thanks for pointing this out!
And for those following this thread, here is another related point I just found in a blog:
https://www.boia.org/blog/make-your-hashtags-accessible
(TLDR: Use CamelCase for your Hashtags)
Thanks for pointing this out!
And for those following this thread, here is another related point I just found in a blog:
https://www.boia.org/blog/make-your-hashtags-accessible
(TLDR: Use CamelCase for your Hashtags)
KayEllen@jscholes I had not thought of this before, but now that you mentioned it, this makes total sense, thank you for sharing it.
Nawen Brightsong
Ag TerraneThank you for this. I wasn't sure where to put them. I will comply with your request. @jscholes