Kee HinckleyCan we talk about Black twitter and Mastodon migration?
I’ve pretty seen a pretty strong consensus from black twitter that their experience in Mastodon has been very negative. Many people don’t see this as a viable destination.
A number of people have pointed out the importance of listening to Black voices on the topic, and I absolutely agree.
OTOH, it’s never right to force activism on someone who just wants to live their life. So listening to Black voices and suggestions does not absolve anyone else of the responsibility to actively seek to learn about issues, and certainly not of the responsibility to do something about what they learn.
Here are some links from Black voices on this topic that I’ve seen since posting this (two that weren’t even as a result of this post, I hope it’s okay for me to tag them here).
@Tinu
https://mastodon.social/@Tinu/109333246923847039
@mekkaokereke
https://mastodon.cloud/@mekkaokereke/109338554570920088
Mekka :verified: 💉💉💉🎉 (@[email protected])
1. Most Black folk in the US experience frequent racism, and have to navigate racist systems daily. It's an important part of our lives. 2. Many white folk are very uncomfortable even hearing about racism. 3. People often talk about the most important things in their lives, with their friends. 4. Most white folk in the US (~75%), have no Black friends. Zero. None. https://www.prri.org/research/poll-race-religion-politics-americans-social-networks/
Tinu - Empress of Twerk@nazgul @mekkaokereke tagging me is fine. Question though, a sincere one. Are you saying that listening to me talk about my life is forcing activism?
No! It was a more general issue that I’ve seen in a number of spaces (lgbtq, gender, race, …), where someone will experience discrimination and everyone will say, “you should sue”, “you should speak up”, “you should protest”…. And you know, not everyone has the spoons to do that, or is at a safe place in their life, and that’s okay. I just didn’t want people to equate “listen to Black voices” with “let them instigate the conversation and do the work”. But I didn’t do a great job of expressing it.
@nazgul @mekkaokereke Well you did this time. 😊
Thanks for the clarity on follow up.
Auntie Denier@nazgul @mekkaokereke @Tinu The first time I’ve seen “spoons” used in this particular way and I’m delighted.
@mekkaokereke @cordeliane @nazgul Never heard of this at all or this context?
https://youtu.be/jn5IBsm49Rk
https://youtu.be/jn5IBsm49Rk
The Spoon Theory written by and spoken by Christine Miserandino
@mekkaokereke @nazgul @Tinu Never! (I’d heard of the *card game* spoons.) But I watched it, thanks for sending. I have a couple of friends with disabilities/chronic illnesses so this was really thought-provoking. I have a lot of spoons at hand, turns out.
@cordeliane Having more spoons is something that makes allies valuable.
Jerry 🦙💝🦙@nazgul thank you for asking this
Tess 
@jerry @nazgul The best way to get an answer to this question is to look at the accounts and communities you're talking about. What are they saying, why, etc. Look at hashtags etc. It's explicitly frowned upon for those of us not members to formulate our own answers on their behalf so I won't.
Since boosted by my wonderful admin Jerry, I would request here a new rule for the server? I actually thought we already had this rule but when going back to confirm it seems we don't. Any thoughts? "Do not weaponise the rules of this group. If you see something, report it to mods" which does require a mod team to be prepared to handle delicate situations.
Don't Sweat the Technique ✊@nazgul This is important, but I have no idea if that's true and if it is why. This is supposed to be a welcoming and safe space for all, and there are endless options to build it the way you want. Maybe ask #blackmastodon?
@valent Absolutely we need to listen. And in general that’s all I do in spaces where I’m not impacted myself. That and amplify voices. But I think this is a place where we can be proactive if we listen and learn what is needed.
huxley(fur) / Laelia 🔜 Furcationland DeadDog@nazgul lots of links and threads here: https://twitter.com/sahdyadarr/status/1590266072627699713
Nate Thornton@nazgul @huxley wow, this thread really brings a lot of receipts with it.
Reading through a few of the ones further down, I think it's clear that there's more work to be done both on the technical side of Mastodon - like more powerful blocking capabilities - as well as on the culture side- like how forcing folks to hide conversations about race behind content warnings can stifle those conversations and the positive progress they can bring.
skye it/its 🏳️⚧️@nazgul from what I've read there are a lot of issues, starting on the benign side: a LOT of white people who are convinced that they're not racist, doing normal racist white people "micro"aggressions and often quickly escalating to direct aggressive racism when they don't get the submissive response they expect.
this is the normal experience for many BIPOC in white dominated spaces, and that alone is a huge issue. checking our own & other white people's racism helps
@nazgul on the more menacing side, there are problems with federation and content moderation that make it extremely easy for trolls to keep harrassing. there are no targeted mass blocking tools like for example blocking all the followers of an account.
many servers have delayed content moderation, and creating new servers continually to go around defederation and keep attacking a specific person is extremely easy
@nazgul one high-profile Black scientist from twitter got slammed with INTENSE racist harassment and has learned a lot of these things the hard way.
so, on the development side a lot remains to be done to improve safety
@nazgul ultimately, as always, the only way to make this space truly viable for BIPOC is to involve, or at the VERY least actively consult them at every single level, in this case meaning from development to content moderation.
Cyber Yuki@nazgul For starters, if you run a masto instance, warn that tone policing and CW policing BIPOC people is a bannable offense.
Harassing a BIPOC person should also be banned (this one's harder to enforce due to ambiguous definitions of harassment, but still).
If you're not:
- Report ppl you see engaging in such behavior.
White folks are in serious need of education. It's a cultural, systemic issue, not a technical one.
ArneBab@ArneBab I don’t understand what you are saying, but it sounds very trollish. Maybe rephrase?
@nazgul The toot said that to help, it should be a bannable offense to CW or tone police a BIPOC person.
If this is not a general rule (because we do CW and tone police other people on the instance, because CWs are actually something we want), then this means before I write anything I have to look at the profile whether the person I’m answering is BIPOC.
The alternative would be to abolish any "please CW" or "please don’t be as aggressive" toots.
Is there another option?
@nazgul I did consider just not answering. Just ignoring it to avoid any possible backlash.
Just thinking "the CWs and friendly tone are something I like here a lot, but let’s just not try to convince people to avoid destroying that because other people might not like reading that I disagree".
@ArneBab Harassmwnt and policing about race, gender, etc is pretty clear. You don’t need to ask people.
The problem is that you’re jumping straight to “but it’s hard not to harass people”. Let’s start with “what can we do to help”.
@nazgul no, I’m not jumping to that. I’m jumping to "policing about tone and CW is something good here".
I do not want people to stop asking me to add a CW or to be more friendly. And I do not want people to first check whether I am BIPOC before they tell me that what I wrote is odd.
Is policing about tone and CW used in a way that’s racist? If yes, then that has to change: it has to be used differently.
It should be obvious when someone is a BIPOC and is getting policy-toned.
Black people say: "A white guy did something..."
White people say: "I saw this guy". Because white people see white people as the norm.
When a Black folk says "white people" and is sufdenly called out abourt not CW, you just know it's racists mobbing them.
And yes, before you start complaining about someone not CW racism, click and look at their friggin' profile. It takes you 2 seconds.
GeekmomK@ArneBab @nazgul Except that some concerns I saw being expressed were tone policing like AAVE use in posts.
As white people, we can’t understand the complexity. Having these conversations is awesome - but making sure that people from historically excluded groups *who want to help* get heard is more important.
Every time we say “if you’re going to complain then do the work” we’re adding emotional and physical labor on top of the current burdens people face. At the same time, we can’t be the ones saying “how modding is right” when we aren’t the ones impacted.
If you like this toot: https://rollenspiel.social/@ArneBab/109337907495965229
please also have a look at the followup: https://rollenspiel.social/@ArneBab/109338123012449572
please also have a look at the followup: https://rollenspiel.social/@ArneBab/109338123012449572
Arne Babenhauserheide (@[email protected])
@[email protected] The toot said that to help, it should be a bannable offense to CW or tone police a BIPOC person. If this is not a general rule (because we do CW and tone police other people on the instance, because CWs are actually something we want), then this means before I write anything I have to look at the profile whether the person I’m answering is BIPOC. The alternative would be to abolish any "please CW" or "please don’t be as aggressive" toots. Is there another option?
Desert Dweller 🌵@nazgul I don't know the answer, but I'm definitely paying attention to this conversation and hope to see practical advice from those who DO know.
Raithmir@nazgul I haven't seen anything offensive or disrespectful to anyone in my limited time here... But then as a straight white guy, I'm not exactly in any of the demographics likely to be on the receiving end.
I read a couple of reports from people who had bad experiences, both of whom had created accounts on Mastodon.social. With that instance seemingly being an order of magnitude bigger than the next largest instance, could that be part of the reason?
As in, it's gotten too large too quick, and moderation is an issue? Still learning how this all works.
Hal Nordlin 
@hal Is this a serious thing? Or a joke?
realcaseyrollins ✝️
Howard Cheng@nazgul Oh? Am interested about what they're saying about the experience and why it's negative. I'm still finding my feet (and people) here, so am interested to know the reason they feel their experience has been negative.
HAMZ@nazgul it’s probably better to ask black people on Twitter. There isn’t many on here and you’re only really gonna get answers from white people.
Michelletime@nazgul Maybe just be open to different lived experiences. I try to welcome new users when they introduce themselves. People just want a safe welcoming place where they can be who they are without explaining or apologizing. I would like this space to be more diverse to improve longevity and outcomes. Look at gifted classes!
Jym Dyer 🚲🌎@nazgul - I think Black Twitter is one of the most important things about the platform and I'm concerned about it due to the uncertain future of Twitter itself.
My understanding (since I wasn't here years ago) is that Content Warning safeguards went up when the alt-right tried to overwhelm Mastodon so a culture developed around that. With an influx of a million more people, there have been those caught up in a culture clash.
The specific bit of culture clash that's hit Black people I know has been white people demanding Content Warnings over the topic of racism, which rubbed them the wrong way. There may be other issues but this is the one I've heard most often.
Johnathan Norman@nazgul I think we should let black twitter speak for themselves
@nazgul also for what it’s worth my experience has been great.
@spoofy I absolutely agree about listening. But I’d seen this a lot in the past few weeks from Black folks I follow on Twitter (and there’s a good link to people discussing it here in the replies), and I’m afraid that if they don’t join, it’s far too easy for people here to think there isn’t a problem. Given the heavy “white techie” slant here, we bear a responsibility to be proactive. And this seemed like the right time to make people aware that there is a problem.
It’s a lot like this verse from Fred Small’s “Talking Wheelchair Blues”.
Well, she talked to the manager when we were through
She says "There're some things you could do
To make it easier for folks in wheelchairs."
He says "Oh, it's not necessary.
Handicapped never come here anyway."
https://g.co/kgs/PbCpST
Reido@nazgul What I also find deeply frustrating is that I have heard this too but have not seen it, meaning I am once again stuck in my straight white guy silo, try as I might not to be. I understand that the dominant culture tends to dominate wherever it goes, but here of all places I assumed I would be pushed (or pulled) into more diverse spaces. Apparently not. So much work to do.
Destiny 
@nazgul
One issue is that what constitutes a “safe space” to white people often excludes being exposed to the experience & realities of marginalised people because it makes them uncomfortable.
Lots of well-meaning tweets have claimed how welcoming Mastodon has been and how much better they like it.
Newcomer hopefuls arrive, then get content policed or don’t feel welcomed. It then again becomes the burden of BIPOC and other marginalized folks to educate, call out injustices, and make space for themselves.
Even with the best intention, telling folks that there are plenty of Mastodon instances that might suit them better if they don’t like the one they’re on is like saying “you’re not welcome in this space.”
While Mastodon is free of algorithmically induced echo chambers that other (monetized) social platforms have, it‘s not devoid of self-made and unwitting echo chambers with “norms” which are created with implicit biases baked in. This is difficult to address as a whole because there’s no unified space, no unified policy, etc. And because many of the existing instances are interest-based, their purpose was never to be a town square, so they feel valid in shielding their community from topics which don’t fit the vibe.
@nazgul some replies to your question are well-meaning but exemplify the very thing you’re asking about. “I don’t see that happening at all” and “not in my experience” is great for them but doesn’t mean it‘s not happening to others. Acknowledging that, and that one might have to feel uncomfortable sometimes for the sake of others, is one step in the right direction.
At the very least, if reading about a certain thing makes me uncomfortable, I can still control the sanctity of my feed by keyword blocking and muting to my heart’s content, without preventing others from speaking.
@thisiscarlsagan Yes. I’m glad most (I have questions about at least one) responses have been positive. But it’s also feeling a bit like a 101 class. :/
IdiotBirdI debated adding to this thread as I'm not a person of color and so can only report what I'm seeing other people say. I have seen quite a few reasons given by people on the birdsite saying they don't want to come over:
- People assaulted with racist rhetoric upon introduction or account creation
- Concerns over moderation policy and tone policing
- Concerns over moderation policy and content warnings
- Concerns from some of black academia that Mastodon will enforce current power structures and their racial implications (this is also true of much of white academia as well)
- Concerns that techniques and tools used to deal with prejudice on Twitter are not available on Mastodon (e.g. a tool to block all followers of a user)
- Concerns about siloing on instances
I have opinions about all of these except for the academic stuff but my point here is to just convey what I've seen. Details for each in responses.
@IdiotBird Thanks. That's a good list. Thoughts on a couple.
WRT content warnings, I can definitely see people thinking those are a tool to say bad stuff that others shouldn't be complaining about, and that's totally not okay. So I get that.
WRT power structures, I think that makes sense too. Too much of a focused silo and it's easy to start mimicking existing lines of power. I can see someone in academia (my wife was in academia for the first 10 years we knew each other), where your entire career rides on relationships, being far more reluctant to say some things in an academic-focused forum than in a more general one. And plus, people come to social media to be their whole self. Not just part of it.
WRT tools. Absolutely we need them. And "block everyone following someone" is actually not a hard one to write, save that it is possible here for people to hide who they follow.