[email protected]Nov 9, 2022
SmittyHalibut

I see a lot of people talking about how Mastodon "Feels like the Internet I remember from 20 years ago."

That's no accident. That's Federation. That's UseNet, IRC, Email, Message Boards, etc. What do they all have in common?

Federation: Users congregating around watering holes of common interest, but still being a part of a larger whole.

THIS IS HOW THE INTERNET WAS DESIGNED TO BE. And I am HERE for it.

Nov 7, 2022 at 3:53amWeb
Show threadMike 🍁Nov 7, 2022
@smitty Well, being 76 now, yup - that was the Internet I remember.
Show threadSmittyHalibutNov 7, 2022
@ravensview I'm only 47 and it's the Internet I remember. 'course, I've been BBSing since I was 12 so, I'm a bit nerdier than average. 🙂
Show threadDr Lisa EvansNov 7, 2022
@smitty I'm 47 as well, but didn't get started on the internet until the mid 90s. Ever since social media got started, it has always felt broken to me. The model was all wrong. Communities need open, free public spaces to congregate in. It's the way we human.
Show threadJimothy 🐢Nov 7, 2022

@lisae @smitty

I don't mean to sound elitist but... the normies need the internet monoliths and apps to make the internet usable. And that is fine, to an extent.

We were using the net in the 90s (and dial up BBS!) and I agree I have never 'got on' with FB/insta/twitter/tiktok

What makes me sad is that most users become entrapped by the likes of facebook, and never realise the true power.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/facebooks-secret-war-switching-costs

Show threadSmittyHalibutNov 7, 2022

@jimothy @lisae I’m willing to agree that many users want a slick UI and don’t want to pay for it. But that doesn’t have to require a walled garden. Gmail is that slick, free system, but I can still email gmail users from my halibut.com server.

Again, it’s about federation.

Show threadJimothy 🐢Nov 7, 2022

@smitty @lisae

Totally agree with everything you say. It didn't need to end up this way and shouldn't have.

Unfortunately, huge swathes are now in those walled gardens, and the longer it goes on, the higher and higher the switching costs become. It's likely to become more common to be baked into hardware and OS.

I have no idea how it will play out though. I can't imagine the EU or FCC mandating federation or portability.

Show threadSmittyHalibutNov 7, 2022
@jimothy @lisae I’m not convinced it’s too late. It feels like both Twitter and FB/Meta (the two worst offenders IMHO) are starting to crumble, both for different but similar reasons: clueless leadership. It’s happened before, that momentum takes a community away from a dominant player, but never a dominant player with such mass. That just means the motivation to move needs more force behind it. It feels like that’s beginning to happen now. One can hope anyway.
Show threadAccording To DadNov 7, 2022
@lisae @smitty Remember AOL, CompuServe and USR Robotics 300 baud modems with the rubber telephone connection? The good old days. It was so much nicer and informed then. Let's hope this is our safe future. ( without AOL, CompuServe and 300 baud modems please!). I'm feeling revived and engaged.
Show threadJobNov 8, 2022

@lisae @smitty
> It's the way we human.

Not a bad slogan for the conviviality ideals of the fediverse :)

Show threadSmittyHalibutNov 8, 2022
@vanderZwan @lisae agreed. :-)
Show threadZeljka ZorzNov 8, 2022
@smitty @ravensview
Same.
Show threadSmittyHalibutNov 7, 2022
@ravensview Also: MASTODON.COFFEE OMG I LOVE IT...
Show threadjohn mizerek 🤡Nov 7, 2022
@smitty the real web 3.0
Show threadSmittyHalibutNov 7, 2022
@john the same as Web 1.0? :-)
Show threadjohn mizerek 🤡Nov 7, 2022

@smitty

lol i think i started on Web 0.01

RELAY at Miami of Ohio in 1985. pre-IRC stuff. sending users a million bottles of beer on the wall, crashing their account.

Show threadyoshirNov 8, 2022
@smitty
I feel it's bad to equate monolith sites to web 2.0
Yes, 2.0 may enabled them, but I feel like there was a period of time where it wasn't burdened by such cancer.
@john
Show threadjohn mizerek 🤡Nov 8, 2022
@yoshir @smitty i'm not equating the site itself, i'm referring more to the distributed nature of masto. web 3 should be distributed.
Show threadSmittyHalibutNov 8, 2022
@john @yoshir web3 has nothing to do with the actual web. It’s a bullshit term made up by blockchain bros trying to legitimize the tech they’ve invested so much time and money into after they realized how much hype it actually was. “The web” meaning HTTP delivery of HTML, with dynamic elements added in “web 2”, does not need or benefit from block chain tech at all. Certain applications implemented on the web might use it, but that’s irrelevant.
Show threadjohn mizerek 🤡Nov 8, 2022

@smitty @yoshir just because crypto hijacked the term doesn't mean it's not allowed to be used.

decentralized != blockchain

i don't think i referred to either crypto or blockchain at any point in this thread.

Show threadSmittyHalibutNov 8, 2022
@john @yoshir true, but web3 is a term used by blockchain proponents to describe some sort of ledger based distribution of mumble mumble secure mumble unfakable mumble whatever. I’m not accusing you of this, I’m accusing the term “web3” of this.
Show threadjohn mizerek 🤡Nov 8, 2022

@smitty @yoshir if you reply to anyone that ever mentions the term you're going to put off a lot of people. i was trying to have an intellectual discussion and you #twittered me, man.

web1 was #distributed but it was really nothing more than a closed network that just had a couple #protocols attached to it, primarily to share resources and words across uni/gov locations.

web2 brought us http but it's still relatively closed; there's a small handful of gatekeepers.

#web3 is distributed web1.

Show threadclacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛Nov 9, 2022
@john It'll be difficult for you to have good conversations if you're using your own definitions for words.

I have never seen anyone define web 1/2/3 the way you are.

@yoshir @smitty
Show threadDaniel BarlowNov 9, 2022
@clacke @yoshir @smitty @john I was there for web1 and I can assure you we had HTTP. Even HTTPS, by the mid-90s
Show threadDaniel BarlowNov 9, 2022
@clacke @john @smitty @yoshir as far as I remember the early 90s, the "world wide web" label basically meant linked documents using HTML + HTTP. It ran "in parallel" with existing protocols for a while - early web browsers spoke gopher and ftp, and in fact it was even possible to serve HTML from gopher or ftp sites (I did this for the "student" pages on info.ox.ac.uk) such that Mosaic or Lynx could visit them. But HTTP was always the web's "native" protocol, insofar as it makes sense to talk about that
Show threadKodaNov 9, 2022

@john @smitty @yoshir

Incorrect. I don't know what you mean by "http" but it was there ever since the Web existed. Also, I believe you are confusing the Web with the Internet. This is a more correct explanation of Web 1, 2, and 3.

Web 1: Hypertext Markup
Web 2: Asynchronous JS
Web 3: Distributed Public Ledger

Show threadSmittyHalibutNov 9, 2022
@zaskoda @john @yoshir This. That matches my understanding of the different "versions" of the web. And I put "versions" in quotes because it's very wishy-woshy. But in broad strokes, this is the general accepted use of those terms.
Show threadKodaNov 9, 2022
@smitty @john @yoshir Agreed! Very wishy-woshy indeed. These terms are borderline useless to anyone doing anything other than marketing.
Show threadyoshirNov 12, 2022
@zaskoda
I thought that you don't need JS for web 2.0, just site being dynamic, instead of just static pages that you check once and then forget.
Show threadKodaNov 12, 2022
@yoshir JS is the scripting language used to make a web page dynamic.
Show threadyoshirNov 12, 2022
@zaskoda
Youtube could function on raw html5 without js and it still would be web 2.0
Show threadAllagmaticNov 29, 2022
@yoshir @zaskoda Web 2 means that the website provides a service and uses data collected to enable network effects. These two don’t necessarily have to be one and the same. For example, GMail is a service that provides data for advertising. See the original O’Reilly article ‘What is Web 2.0’.
Show threadAllagmaticNov 29, 2022
@zaskoda @john @smitty @yoshir I can remember a time Web 3 meant the semantic web and nothing to do with distributed ledger, which I don’t understand as really having anything to do with the web.
Show threadmaddox jacobsNov 7, 2022
@smitty exACTLY
Show threadCharles J Gervasi ⚡🛡️🥥Nov 7, 2022
@smitty One thing that was special was anyone could put their ideas out there. There weren't 10 channels with production managers determining your 10 choices. Somehow we went back to central gatekeepers, maybe because we realized we needed gatekeepers, but they don't have to be centralized.
Show threadSmittyHalibutNov 7, 2022
@cgervasi The commercial orgs figured out how to make it easy for the non-tech folks. Even now, we see people talk about how Mastodon is harder to understand and use than Twitter, but it's a whole lot better than it used to be.
Show threadSarbNov 7, 2022
@smitty hell yeh
Show threadSmittyHalibutNov 7, 2022
@sarb Right?! 🙂
Show threadSarbNov 7, 2022
@smitty I remember back when we pushed hard against walled gardens. And then the rise of Facebook and Gmail meant that both email and the web became synonymous with just these two things. And mobile service providers even offered free data to access them in exchange for a cut of the revenue. Still do. I am v new here, but I used to belong to a microblogging service called Phlog, back in 2003. I was user #3. What a ride! https://twitter.com/alanb/status/1488754580100116481?s=20&t=OXA_nJPHw7lze3-EFOv8NA
Alan Bradburne on Twitter

“Heh, all still intact. Nice. Gonna prop-up my 19-year-old pre-twitter microblog for a giggle. #phlog”

Twitter
Show threadSmittyHalibutNov 7, 2022
@sarb At least Email is still a Federated system. If you choose to use gmail.com, it doesn't stop me from using my own domain and still being able to interoperate with you. That's really where the problem is: breaking that interoperability between domains of control. Luckily, email became well enough established before large instances like Gmail came around, otherwise it probably would be a walled garden too.
Show threadSarbNov 7, 2022
@smitty Too true, email you can disaggregate to a large extent. But so many people don't because it's easy. And hence the training wheels required for Mastodon. many people have never experienced an ecosystem like this before. I did for decades, but haven't in a long time, and I'm REALLY rusty. Heck knows what others feel like...
Show threadʞuᴉԀ ✅Nov 7, 2022

@smitty @sarb I remember that was literally what services such as Microsoft Network (MSN) were all about in their first iterations and what Exchange server was originally for.

Their idea was you would access everything through their network and stay on their network for the most part with proprietary systems for messages and "web" and a "gateway" that they could charge you for to access other networks such as AOL, Compuserve, or "internet messages".

Show threadSarb JohalNov 7, 2022
@PeaEyeEnnKay @smitty I know! Remember when the person who knew how to interface with the Exchange server was the person who you had to suck up to the most in order to get anything down outside the internal network?
Show threadʞuᴉԀ ✅Nov 8, 2022

@sarb @smitty I was 'that guy' but we were running Netware and Solaris in the backend on a dual bonded ISDN with Socks proxy and as I was the only person who knew how it all worked I was free to give people unfettered access to the internet and show them how to hide from company snooping as much as possible.

Exchange was something I was 'looking at', mostly with disdain.

Show threadSarb JohalNov 8, 2022
@PeaEyeEnnKay @smitty🔝 Force for good!
Show threadSteveNov 8, 2022

@smitty @sarb greetings. Regarding to email is a federated system, I read recently this sad article about the difficulties you might face with it:

https://cfenollosa.com/blog/after-self-hosting-my-email-for-twenty-three-years-i-have-thrown-in-the-towel-the-oligopoly-has-won.html

He faced huge problems with Mail distribution after some spam mail events and the upcoming ban for it by so called "big players".

I cannot compare. Did you notice something similar?

After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel. The oligopoly has won.

Many companies have been trying to disrupt email by making it proprietary. So far, they have failed. Email keeps being an open protocol. Hurray? No hurray. Email is not distributed anymore. You just cannot create another first-class node of this ne

Show threadNealeNov 18, 2022

@SteveTux @smitty @sarb I had to take my server offline years ago for the exact reasons outlined in this article.

I used to work on anti-spam solutions and SMTP filters. I don't blame anybody but the spammers for this state of affairs. It's honestly impressive that email is still in use at all.

Show threadSmittyHalibutNov 18, 2022

@neale @SteveTux @sarb Self hosting email is a disaster; I should know, I've been doing it since 1995. You have to setup your site very carefully. I have a closed user base that I mostly trust, so credentials don't leak often.

But, yes, I've had to deal with Gmail, hotmail, etc, rejecting our emails because somehow some spam got through. I find and fix the problem, and they auto-remediate. It's not trivial.

But ActivityPub is different: source authentication is built-in to the protocol.

Show threadIrinaNov 18, 2022
@SteveTux @smitty @sarb Yes, same here. We opted for external hosting rather than doing everything on our own machine but it didn't help any, we're still flagged as spam every so often.
Show threadSarbNov 7, 2022
@smitty I also lost about 6 months of my life to #undernet on IRC on the @cern server in 1992
Show threadSmittyHalibutNov 7, 2022
@sarb I actually mostly avoided IRC because I had another social forum that I ran: a Citadel/UX BBS with an active userbase dating from the 80s. But I know people who went DEEP into IRC, for YEARS. I remember talk of #heathers getting out of hand. 🙂
Show threadSarbNov 7, 2022
@smitty Crikey - yeah, I missed the whole BBS thing mostly. But I remember AOL arriving in the UK in the midst of trying to build a walled garden around all that (if I remember correctly). They got burned.
Show threadSmittyHalibutNov 7, 2022
@sarb I owe my entire career (and, lets be honest, LIFE) to BBSes. I got started when I was 10, was running my own by 12, and haven't stopped running it, even to today. It's what got me started in system administration and networking. I literally have no idea what I'd have done to make money if it weren't for BBSing when I was a kid.
Show threadSarbNov 7, 2022
@smitty FANTASTIC - what a skill to have to keep going though all this - and so many changes you'll have seen too. Like, from the BEGINNING OF INTERNET TIME
Show threadSarbNov 7, 2022
@smitty OMG this convo reminds me that when I arrived in NZ in 2005, the shared flat I was in was still using dial-up internet. 2005! We had to take turns with it and we had time limits. And mobile data was so expensive and crappy coverage, I had to go to internet cafes to stay in touch with folks outside of NZ. Which was everyone. I didn't know anyone here then. WOW
Show threadLothos Nov 7, 2022
@sarb @smitty I got on irc around 91 and never left
Show threadio+Nov 7, 2022
@smitty how is IRC federated? do networks and bridges really count?
Show threadSmittyHalibutNov 7, 2022
@io You connect to an IRC server, and that server can exchange messages with another server, with its own set of users. It is a single global namespace so KINDA not federated, but you can run your own instance and connect it to another network if you want.
Show threadio+Nov 7, 2022
@smitty oh yeah, I just now remembered pissnet and it's huge topology graph https://ioserv.hellomouse.net/graph
Show threadEllenor Bjornsdottir   Nov 7, 2022
@io @smitty It’s not, but there’s quite low friction to setting up a relay bot, or jumping between networks, or firing up your own IRCd. Hell, I’ve even modified Charybdis (a notable but now-unmaintained) IRCd before.
Show threadBrar PieningNov 7, 2022
@smitty 💯