Even though I am generally interested in science and technology, I have found it impossible to get excited about Artemis II.
I'm not quite sure. Maybe it's because America isn't exactly my favourite country these days because ... well, you know why. Or maybe it's because, contrary to what I'd always assumed, these things are a lot more jingoistic than I thought. It's not "Mankind is going to the moon", it's "America is beating China to the moon".
@davidnjoku @Xavier I had the livestream on in my office and it was enjoyable.
When they came out from behind the moon and Trump called, I thought “that’s a hell of a punishment for coming out from behind the moon” and turned it off.
This was something done despite him, he’s been cutting NASA budget. It’s European engines, much more a humanity is doing this kind of thing.
But I absolutely get where you’re coming from.
Yup.
Related:
I never see any of the "I'm just excited about space progress and science!" crowd celebrating any of the Chinese space flight accomplishments.
They were silent when China landed a robot on the moon a few years ago. Silent when China landed a rover on Mars. Silent about the Chinese space station that's orbiting the planet. Silent about China's crewed mission to Mars that is on schedule to depart on 2033.
When they talk about space and science and exploration being "humanity's accomplishments," it's pretty clear who they're viewing as humanity. There's an era of cold war nationalism that feels yucky.
The reality behind the scenes is far, far more complex than this.
Please say more?
Attached: 2 images Looking at the recent NASA photos, I'm reminded of this quote from Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell. "You develop an instant global consciousness, a people orientation, an intense dissatisfaction with the state of the world, and a compulsion to do something about it." #NASA #ArtemisII
@RunRichRun @cyberlyra @davidnjoku @piquant00
You've either completely missed, or completely ignored, the point of my post.
I'll say it much more bluntly, to let you react to it:
It's not "cheering for humanity" if you only cheer when Europeans or Americans do it. Instead it's a weird kind of nationalism or eurocentrism that is the opposite of what Star Trek is supposedly selling.
And it's super obvious to non-white observers how we "cheer for humanity" when Elon or NASA does something spacey, but to not even talk about it when China or India do something.
India has also landed a probe on the moon, and India has sent a probe to Mars orbit. India is the first nation to successfully enter Mars orbit on the first try. And their mission control and science and engineering teams are a lot more gender balanced than most places.
I'm saying that we should "celebrate humanity's space achievements" when they do stuff too, but I don't see that happening.
This isn't "Don't cheer for NASA." I cheer for NASA!👍🏿
This is "Don't try to sell me that US space race fever, is a win for humanity, because it's not."
It's "We can have a Federation of Planets, just as long as Earth is the head of that Federation, and the US is the head of Earth, and Starfleet headquarters is in San Francisco. Anything else is Romulans! 🤡"
Yup:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lqXHd-KaRhk
And the Chinese space station has working Hall effect ionic impulse engines, similar to how the impulse engines in Star Trek work. So it doesn't just burn rocket fuel and oxygen for propulsion. It also uses a stream of ions.
Here I would draw a distinction between those of us working on planetary & space science and the contingent you describe.
Since the professional communities worldwide all work with one another - even across the firewall (as my teachers worked with their Soviet counterparts across the curtain).
And I assume you meant to write "China's crewed mission to the Moon" there, which is what is planned for that time subject to the heavy Long March tests working.
No, I meant Mars. As recently as 2021, China said that 2033 is the planned date for the crewed Mars mission.
Unless that has changed since then?
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/24/china-plans-for-first-manned-mission-to-mars-in-2033
And unlike Elon, China has hit most of their planned space exploration dates.
But yes, I agree that "scientists working on things" tend to have a better and more well rounded view than the "I just like the idea of space travel!" crowd. ♥️👍🏿
Current CMSA human spaceflight plans beyond Earth orbit are only for lunar missions in 2030-2035; with the timing depending on the outcomes of tests of the Long March 10 launch vehicle, the Mengzhou crew module, and the Lanyue lunar lander.
The next test in the series is the first orbital Long March 10 and Mengzhou launch, scheduled for late this year: https://spacenews.com/china-targets-2026-for-first-long-march-10-launch-new-lunar-crew-spacecraft-flight/
China targets 2026 for first Long March 10 launch, new lunar crew spacecraft flight China aims to conduct the first launch of its Long March 10 rocket and a lunar-capable crew spacecraft next year, according to a top official.
CNSA robotic Mars mission plans currently include only Tianwen-3, which plans to do a simpler but easier version of Mars sample return than NASA has attempted.
Launch of Tianwen-3 is 2030 *, which would have sample return to Earth no earlier than 2033: https://spacenews.com/china-targets-2030-for-mars-sample-return-mission-potential-landing-areas-revealed/
(Thanks go to @AndrewJonesSpace for his reporting, because I cannot read mission announcements in Chinese myself.)
* Addendum: Tianwen-2 may still make the 2028 launch window.
China targets 2030 for Mars sample return mission, potential landing areas revealed China is making progress towards a 2030 launch for its Tianwen-3 Mars sample return mission and has narrowed down potential landing areas.
@michael_w_busch @davidnjoku @AndrewJonesSpace
@AndrewJonesSpace Did China de-commit from Mars in 2033? I see that they stated the planned Mars mission, then also announced lunar missions, but I didn't see where they de-committed or delayed the 2033 crewed Mars mission.
@mekkaokereke @michael_w_busch @davidnjoku China never committed to 2033 for humans to Mars. There was a presentation at a conference in which a CALT official updated space transportation plans, including distant notion of a mars base. He also assessed the best Mars launch windows, indicating that 2033 would be favourable in terms of efficiently launching payload mass. Reuters interpreted this as "China to send humans to Mars in 2033" when it was never, ever the case.
Tianwen-3, the Mars sample return mission, is currently scheduled for late 2028. Astronauts on the Moon before 2030, plans for a robotic moon base in the 2030s. Anything else is speculative.
@mekkaokereke @davidnjoku @AndrewJonesSpace
This is more a matter of an aspirational statement from one program manager not being an actual mission commitment in the first place.
A human Mars mission would require an extended period of building & testing crew and landing spacecraft that no one now knows how to make.
The PRC space program is not doing that yet and was not in 2021 (it was then some years into developing Mengzhou and Lanyue for lunar missions).
@mekkaokereke @michael_w_busch @davidnjoku
I believe a crewed mission to mars would make it harder for us to figure out if theres life on mars as humans are giant bags filled with microbes which would run a big chance of contaminating the experiment.
Robots are the best path.
@aizuchi @mekkaokereke @davidnjoku
There were a couple of years where I was the only member of my work group who was allowed to communicate with PRC asteroid researchers directly; because I was then paid by the NSF and did not have the NASA restriction imposed by Frank Wolf when he was in Congress.
So much nonsense because of Wolf's racism and other members of Congress choosing to enable it.
Fair.
But do people hear about Elon launches and Artemis from the planetary society? Or from CNN and other mainstream media?
Mekka
@mekkaokereke @davidnjoku I concede the point, although from my perspective I've had my interest in space absolutely shattered by the Expanse-esque competition from the billionaires.
I did watch Tiangong launch, and the first set of astronauts to go up. Kinda wild how the feed gets flagged as "state media" in a way NASA (and perhaps ESA?) doesn't, to your point.
Trying not to "not all Artemis enthusiasts" about this. I definitely am trying to latch onto an accomplishment that feels multi-national and worthwhile, particularly as it would rekindle my life-long love of space. There was a time when I was retweeting the goings on of every fledgling launch provider (I remember watching RocketLab back when it was literally just a cheap web cam pointing at the pad). Just can't these days, Musk has put paid to that.
Not sure I had a overall point sorry, just wanted to provide some context for anyone in the same, ostensibly silent boat as myself.
I saw an article earlier about the potential collapse of the video game industry (possibly on Aftermath), and their point was along the lines of "yeah but that giant free-to-play game in South Korea that you've never heard of doesn't care if Call of Duty sales nosedive". I guess we all have our blind spots to things going on elsewhere.
@tehstu @mekkaokereke @davidnjoku Not-specific-to-any-country-summary:
(disclosure: I watched too many launches while working at Blue Origin)
Hey that Chinese seedling sprouting on the moon was a neat experiment!
YES! It has been bothering me to see all the hype for dark side of the moon pics with zero references to the Chinese who got the photos years aho
@davidnjoku The broadcasts that I've seen related to Artemis II have been embarrassingly jingoistic, indeed. So many flags waving. So many talking heads saying the word "America" until semantic satiation sets in.
The Apollo program (which I wasn't around to watch firsthand) had geopolitical motives, sure, but I'm under the impression that JFK and his successors were far better at highlighting the nobler aspects of the challenge itself.
@WesternInfidels @davidnjoku They were, JFK gave this great speech (a stark contrast to today):
“There is no strife, no prejudice, no national conflict in outer space as yet. Its hazards are hostile to us all. Its conquest deserves the best of all mankind, and its opportunity for peaceful cooperation may never come again. But why, some say, the moon? Why choose this as our goal? And they may well ask why climb the highest mountain? Why, 35 years ago, fly the Atlantic? Why does Rice play Texas?
“We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.”
"We choose to go to the Moon", officially titled the address at Rice University on the nation's space effort, is a September 12, 1962, speech by United States President John F. Kennedy to further inform the public about his plan to land a man on the Moon before 1970.
@davidnjoku This part. It feels impossible for me to overlook the way aeronautics research has been used for nationalistic, surveillance, and war purposes*, especially now when it's literally happening and there's nothing I can do about it. And this is coming from someone who fundraised with their graduating class so we could go to Space Camp.
*this part is for any nation, they all do this, it's how they get government funding to start with
I grok. But recall that the whole Apollo program was "America is beating the Soviets to the moon". And once we'd checked the box, that was it.
Am I excited? No. Am I following the progress? Yes.
@davidnjoku
This whole thread makes me wonder what else i am missing.
First it makes me wish to get to know more about *all* different space programs.
If one could provide links to preferable sites with a "wider view" that would be awesome.
I blame media for featuring mostly bad/depressing/enraging news for the clicks - and for a way to narrow view provided.😒
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