Mastodawn

Fried Chicken 5h ago

so Fedi is an echo chamber, sez a recent unnamed toot. I see that too.

But then they go on to say we should stop bullying fucking assholes (people with "other" viewpoints, like AI shills) and letting them play in our jungle gym.

The toot has already got tons of replies, but I just wanted to say:

No. Fuck you. This community is chock full of people from marginalized communities, and any push to get us to "open up" to people with "different viewpoints" that include fucking fascist autocorrect bots that are shredding the net to devour it is just fucking stupid.

I don't give a shit if Fedi grows. I rather like being a place where people from famous artists like Micheal Whelen, to community instigators like VantaBlack and PhoenixSerenity feel comfortable interacting with everyone directly.

The people most in favor of this fucking nonsense have a HUGE idealogical overlap with those who burn crosses, so to speak.

If that means we stay small? Good. Fuck outta here. If we disagree with you to the point we get savage at you, YOU DON'T DESERVE TO BE HERE

Lisa Melton 20h ago

@TeflonTrout This. 💯

Skjeggtroll 20h ago

I guess it was only a question of time before the Brain Eater started in on video game creators as well.

NeonSnake 20h ago

@TeflonTrout I'm not sure exactly what it is he thinks we should be doing differently?

I don't like AI. It gives me the ick. So I don't engage, and I occasionally mention that I dislike it.

I do like having a community where I can witter on about what I *do* like, and get an amount of nice conversation out of it.

I do like having a feed and friends who I, y'know, like and share the same values, morals, and sometimes hobbies and interests with.

oh noes? woe is us, we should engage with people who we don't have shared values with?

Why?

@neonsnake @TeflonTrout
I enjoy conversation with people who are not congruent, but if they use dog-whistles or show Churchill's description of a poor companion ( won't change their opinion and can't change the topic ) then they are muted.

NeonSnake 14h ago

@quoidian @TeflonTrout

ah, this is hard to get across.

I'm too tired to engage with people who don't at least share basic values; I might argue with them, but I'm not going to invite them into my house.

Depending on how bad I think they are, I might blast them, otherwise a simple block (I've done both today) will do.

At the end of the day, I'm also a person with some needs, mental health and otherwise.

The guy that started this, has some weird fetish that we should all be kind to everyone, no matter what; possibly he is ignorant of the harms done by AI etc.

He's also invoked "Black Twitter"; in the sense of "being unwelcoming to AI-positive people" is the same as being "unwelcoming to black people".

I'm white, so...take this as you will, but that seems...questionable at best.

I'll take a steer from people who are not white on this, however.

@neonsnake @TeflonTrout
I usually mute rather than block.

NeonSnake 14h ago

👍

Jagermo 19h ago

@TeflonTrout
They can build their own community, but they won't because then they would have to face themselves.

Don't Sweat The Technique ✊19h ago

@TeflonTrout Hell, yeah. 100% gtfo to the cryptobros, the ai shills, and all the other fascism apologists.

Miko Blissful [he/fae]19h ago

@TeflonTrout They can take their "freeze peach" and shove it. We don't deal with those c**ts here. Let's continue to make them feel unwelcome.

Free speech means we are free to tell them they are being an asshole and we want them to leave. That argument blows

Miko Blissful [he/fae]15h ago

@TeflonTrout You misunderstand me. We have a right to protect our spaces. We have the right to refuse parley with toxic garbage who insists they should be allowed to serve dog shit at the community table. We have the right to call out their bullshit and kick them out.

What these "freeze peach" people, who *do* serve the bespoke dog shit at the table do, will claim that shutting them out is "censorship".

Our servers are not the bespoke "all views matter" square. We are the owners of the lawn. We don't have to welcome them or debate with them.

Defederating with them isn't "censorship". It is calling out their BS and slamming the door in their face.

Hope this clarifies.

I love it, thank you very much. I'm sorry I got snippy with you, and excellent point.

A little righteous fury is a good thing.

I think it's more constructive to attack the behavior, not the individuals, but when it comes to bots and the like, yea, take them down hard.

I'm pretty new to this fedi thing, and I appreciate the community here. Much better than my recent experience with Twitter went... and Reddit. It's definitely worth protecting.

I'm stoked that you found shelter here! It really is a beautiful, unique place and it is very important to me. Thanks for the kind words, and good point about behavior vs people

Bogdan Buduroiu 19h ago

@TeflonTrout I like Machine Learning, Deep Learning, Reinforcement Learning, I like that I can interact with people that also research that and post their findings on the fediverse and don't have to go to X to do so. Idk why I don't deserve to be here, but hey, I respect your opinion

are you using LLMs and pretending they are gen AI?

If not, LLMs are badass tools in their own right, and if you work with those that is badass.

Are you using one of the big bastard's slop dispensers, like Claude, et al? Then I really don't care if I never see you again.

Bogdan Buduroiu 18h ago

@TeflonTrout I don't use US models, and if I did, it would only be to distil their outputs. My business helps people set up open weight models on whatever GPUs they rent (whether from hyperscalers or their own), and do distributed inference. The market was much better before big bastard labs got HIPAA and other certifications, but I can't complain, it's a fun challenge still. I'm old, so my background is in training Generative-Adversarial Networks to do unsupervised anomaly detection (think anomalous radiographies).

Besides that, I use LLMs for what they're good at: fuzzing. I won't name names, for fear of litigious actors, but LLMs are great at reverse-engineering proprietary blobs that get in my way, LLMs are a great 'fitness' evaluator for evolving algorithms (instead of doing exhaustive search, you use an LLM to guide param tuning).

My belief is that LLMs are here to stay, and the only way forward for us laypeople to retain some semblance of power isn't rejecting LLM use, but making them so commoditised that large-scale datacentres just become economically intractable. The OAI-Nvidia-Oracle-CoreWeave circlejerk investment is the proof that capitalism has transcended labour and "voting with your dollars" is powerless as direct action.

Now THERE is a nuanced and useful pov, if I do say so myself, because I 100% agree. It isn't LLMs specifically we hate, its the ones the dicks in US hype land have overstuffed and are pretending they are AI.

Those, and the artless slop generators are what we hate. But using LLMs to pore over huge datasets looking for things experts like yourself have trained them to find? That is the Good Stuff.

I agree that there's no stopping the bad stuff completely (just like we still get spam emails), but I sure as shit don't want anything to do with it

threatchain 4h ago

@budududuroiu Your approach to commoditizing inference through distributed setups is spot on - breaking the centralized chokehold is probably our best shot at keeping these tools accessible. The fuzzing applications are particularly clever, especially using LLMs as fitness functions for parameter evolution rather than brute force search.

@TeflonTrout I'm in a tech industry chat group and while there are some people in it I like who are gone for AI, it's also true that the people who don't give a shit about anyone are the biggest proponents.

They're not going to stick their neck out for anyone else, why would we for them?

@TeflonTrout conversely, the conscientious objectors have always maintained an ethical standard about what they will and won't use, there's absolutely nothing unique to LLMs about their response to the practices.

People casting it as some kind of mania or confusion can get fucked.

GeofCox 19h ago

I don't want an echo-chamber - I just want polite, respectful sharing and discussion. If to get that, we have to exclude the extreme right, then so be it. All they have to do to get included is to behave like reasonable people.

Marianne 15h ago

@GeofCox @TeflonTrout I don't think anyone can be both far-right and reasonable. Their 'concerns' are de facto unreasonable.

lockspringer 13h ago

@noodlemaz @GeofCox @TeflonTrout true! u can forget about the real Nazis u want to go for the people that follow these fanatics, people are opportunists - this is seen way too negative - it’s a chance, a lot will change their mind. Engage with the undecided. No alt-right people are not unreasonable - they just attribute problem to the wrong cause! Fear of loosing your job? - true! It’s the migrants fault - No, and this is why XYZ etc…

@lockspringer @noodlemaz @GeofCox

I live in Trump country. I am afraid you are way too generous in your assessment of the US, if not humanity in general.

I hope I'm wrong about that, but what can you do?

lockspringer 11h ago

@TeflonTrout @noodlemaz @GeofCox

do a Trump and turn the Democratic Party into 1 that advocates Social Democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

Then u can go outside. Ze Weather is great! And don’t worry about allergies, since u got European style health care, medication is 3€/month, might even be lower, as part of the EU single market having joined after Mexico and Canada in 2029. u do miss imperial units though, and semi automatic AR-15s 🥹

Social democracy - Wikipedia

@lockspringer @noodlemaz @GeofCox

Fuck yes, sign me up!

I've had more than enough of semiautomatic M-16s and M-4s before I held an AR for the first time.

I'm a real miserable asshole, but I don't think I'm tough enough to do the heartless things I'd have to do to foment a fucking international cult.

Fuck, I'd kill myself first.

lockspringer 11h ago

@TeflonTrout @noodlemaz @GeofCox no need to join a cult (international or local) or shoot yourself. If your miserable think that this won’t always be the case in the future, but it is possible that you have to do something about it, miserable might not go away on its own, that can be talking to a good friend or relative, and asking them if they think you need professional help like a doctor or a therapist, if you yourself are unsure

@lockspringer @noodlemaz @GeofCox

thank you, genuinely. I am ok but, if I had to lead a cult I wouldnt be able to live with myself. I cant lead

lockspringer 9h ago

@TeflonTrout @noodlemaz @GeofCox well u can always try and ask others for feedback, way better than to self assess, if only the group of people is big enough and feedback can be given in anonymous manner.

@lockspringer @noodlemaz @GeofCox

You are very good at helping people stay grounded, did you know that? That is rock solid advice.

サムエルはツナマヨおにぎりをたべます。18h ago

@TeflonTrout

> letting them play in our jungle gym

Not only letting them in, the sentiment in that thread even appeared to be "you fedizens must play nice with them!"

which, like, no, fuck that

at best they can use the protocol, i guess, and then we can blanket ban all .ai tld servers

degenerating degenerate 18h ago

... sorry why is Mastodon "your" playground but not for anyone who disagrees with you?

Could you help me understand how that differs from fascism?

OOOOOOH no, no you don't.

You don't like what a community stands for, you don't participate in that community.

Since I'm not John/Joan Mastodon, Ruler of All Who Federate, your point is just kinda silly.

degenerating degenerate 17h ago

Oh yes, yes I do...

If you live in a democracy, you have your say and if you have first amendment rights, you're legally protected to do so.

"What the community stands for" is subject to change over time, and it changes by people being willing to put their point of view, even if it is not popular or frowned on by those in power.

Fascism, on the other hand will burn books and then people in order to stop any expression that those who think they are in power disapprove of.

Look, you equating this pov to fascism doesn't track, don't dodge the point because you brought it up. I'm not going after your chaff and smoke, nor am I doing anything more than exercising my own rights. Buddy if you think that smacks of fascism there's really nothing worth discussing with you on the topic.

·J Mopp 16h ago

@TeflonTrout I don't see how any of that applies here. Clearly we're both exercising our freedom of speech, and none of us are being harmed for it. The beauty of the Fediverse is that it's decentralised. There is no one "community", but many separate instances interacting with each other. Like you yourself said, what the community stands for is subject to change by people putting forward their points of view. If you disagree with the way your instance is moderated, you can move to a new one

Marianne 15h ago

@hopeless @TeflonTrout this is the Internet, not America

Chaucerburnt 14h ago

@noodlemaz @hopeless @TeflonTrout and even in the USA the First Amendment is a constraint only on American *governments*, not on what private individuals/orgs do with their Mastodon servers.

Pete Alex Harris🦡🕸️🌲/∞🪐∫17h ago

@hopeless @TeflonTrout
It differs from fascism in 14 respects which you can look up here:

https://rense.com/general37/fascism.htm

Individual mastodon instances have community standards, which certain viewpoints violate and promote the violation of. Expressing those viewpoints is a breach of the social contract of that community, and is therefore not protected by the social contract of that community as regards people saying uncivil things like:

Fuck off, bootlicker. No pasaran.

The 14 defining Characteristics Of Fascism

Sharp Leaves 18h ago

@TeflonTrout Strange that the 'unpopular opinions' that demand consideration are never radical Confucians or people who think robusta is the best coffee.

It's always some huge obnoxious viewpoint that's been argued to death already, and already has it's own spaces and mediums. And in the last 20 years, always with an entire political wing and/or billionaire endorsement and support literally everywhere else.

Phil Thane ✅18h ago

@TeflonTrout If people find the generally liberal consensus on existing Fedi instances not to their taste they can create a new one (like Truth.social for example). If users of that instance express coherent views in a respectful manner (unlike Truth. social) other instances might agree to federate and we can have civilised debate. Of course a lot of people would rather rant than put in the work to create things. That's a problem they need to address.

Phosphenes 16h ago

@pthane @TeflonTrout

Exactly. If you want a right wing fedi go build your own right wing fedi. Nobody's stopping you.

It was designed that way on purpose!

Hot Dog Water, will not comply 17h ago

Ha.
Fuck them fuckers.

I AM BANKSY ☕ / 🗑‍🔥17h ago

Your last paragraph is a great summary.

"We didn't make it for YOU."

Toni Aittoniemi 17h ago

@TeflonTrout Communities are defined by their values, and the resilience of those values is definited by the people’s vigour in enforcing the values are applied.

”Community” is not something an algorithm cooked up and unified the feeds. It is a lived experience, perpetuated by people passing the good things forward and keeping out the bad.

Patrick H. Lauke 16h ago

@TeflonTrout good lord yes that convo made my piss boil yesterday

Patrick H. Lauke 16h ago

@TeflonTrout https://mastodon.social/@patrick_h_lauke/116352769773290308

@patrick_h_lauke high five

stux⚡️15h ago

@TeflonTrout Quality over quantity ♥️😸

@TeflonTrout There's a whole other Fediverse out there which is filled with those people, we don't see them because of Fediblock and other initiatives to block those people when they show up. We do that for a reason and if we're an "echo chamber" as a result then good, less fash rolling up with a megaphone to yell hate at us. That's not to mean we're safe, many minorities have been chased off and do make for a monoculture but I don't think that's the "echo chamber" the anon toot meant.

Kyyrypyy 15h ago

@TeflonTrout
Well, nothing prevents those AI shills and "other" viewpoint people from establishing their own isntance with their own bubble... And most likely having their instance unfederated from most other instances.

the gripe ibis 14h ago

@TeflonTrout i am starting to think that when people say “echo chamber,” what they often mean is “a place where there are many diverse voices and opinions which have resulted in a relatively cohesive and internally consistent ethos that is not favourable to me or my causes.”

@thegarbagebird @TeflonTrout See also: "narrative"

the gripe ibis 2h ago

@isocat
thinking of maintaining a phrasebook with things like “free speech” and “innovation” and stuff like that, with what words actually mean, and then how they're used now, so i can compare the two

@thegarbagebird @isocat

Lol, a dogwhistle thesaurus? Sign me up

the gripe ibis 2m ago

@TeflonTrout @isocat oh that's a GREAT name

@thegarbagebird @isocat

I'm not kidding, this is a wiki waiting to happen

@TeflonTrout @datenwolf yea, keep Fedi small and weird. The need for perpetual growth is a capitalist trait, and look what that has done to everything.

“Stop bullying assholes” - lol sure, that has a predictable outcome. The assholes will shit all over everything.