Mastodawn

Richard Eriksson 1d ago

I'm currently reading Frank Herbert's "Dune" for the first time.

I was struck by this passage. It comes right after the Reverend Mother has tested Paul Atreides. She is talking with him.

"𝗢𝗻𝗰𝗲, 𝗺𝗲𝗻 𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗻𝗲𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗸𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗼𝘃𝗲𝗿 𝘁𝗼 𝗺𝗮𝗰𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗲𝘀 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗵𝗼𝗽𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝘄𝗼𝘂𝗹𝗱 𝘀𝗲𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗺 𝗳𝗿𝗲𝗲. 𝗕𝘂𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗼𝗻𝗹𝘆 𝗽𝗲𝗿𝗺𝗶𝘁𝘁𝗲𝗱 𝗼𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿 𝗺𝗲𝗻 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗺𝗮𝗰𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗲𝘀 𝘁𝗼 𝗲𝗻𝘀𝗹𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗺."

How apropos seventy years later.

Meznor UNGRATEFUL MIDDLE POWER 1d ago

@Wolf Classic ❤️

David Njoku 1d ago

@Wolf Why do I keep reading that cover as DUZE?

Jonathan T 1d ago

@davidnjoku @Wolf Frank Herbert's, "MZCU"

@Wolf
I read it long ago. I remember not to sit with my back to doorways.

Heliograph 1d ago

@Wolf yes I read that book a few times back then, and agreed it is very #apropos and #notsureyouknew 😬 #Dune #FrankHerbert

grrl_aex 1d ago

(70 years later...or 17,000 years earlier! 😜)

That's a GREAT quote!

and how apropos indeed.

I hope our 'Butlerian jihad' doesn't destroy earth tho...be kinda hard to replace...🤔

Whiskers 🇦🇺1d ago

@Wolf He’s going “I warned you” from the other side

@Wolf excellent book

Michael Gemar 1d ago

@Wolf @Npars01 But getting rid of the thinking machines didn’t seem to reduce power disparity.

Nicole Parsons 1d ago

@michaelgemar @Wolf

Humanity has always had to struggle with a certain percentage of sociopaths wishing to cheat & dominate.

It's the job of the majority in every society to curb such individuals.

@Npars01 @michaelgemar @Wolf an even worse struggle is the one against the stupids. Always underestimated and never right.

Nicole Parsons 1d ago

@albertojavier @michaelgemar @Wolf

Stupids are manufactured as well as born.

Ensuring the poor have a nutritionally deficient diet pre- and post-natally is a common method used by The Moneyed.
https://abcnews.com/Health/snap-back-millions-americans-lose-benefits-due-new/story?id=127593186

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/federal-food-assistance-program-may-slow-cognitive-decline-study-sugge-rcna220888

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/heres-whats-in-new-dietary-guidelines-from-the-trump-administration

Another is exposing the poor to higher rates of disease, poor quality water supply, air pollution, & insufficient medical care is another.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/measles-encephalitis-south-carolina-anti-vaccine-b2918500.html

https://ourworldindata.org/measles-increases-disease-risk

https://theconversation.com/measles-can-ravage-the-immune-system-and-brain-causing-long-term-damage-a-virologist-explains-252354

1/

SNAP is back, but millions of Americans could lose benefits due to new restrictions

More than 3 million Americans could lose benefits in the next few years.

ABC News

Nicole Parsons 1d ago

2/

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2025/11/federal-funding-lead-pipes-replacement-chicago-illinois-trump-withholding-congress/

https://earthjustice.org/press/2025/trump-administrations-epa-dumps-wastewater-treatment-standards-for-coal-fired-power-plants

https://www.ehn.org/autism-wildfire-smoke

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/how-the-trump-administrations-embrace-of-oil-gas-and-chemical-industry-interests-will-endanger-childrens-health/

https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-025-02427-6

Koch Network funded covid disinformation deliberately & got millions of kids with long covid.
https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/coronavirus/2022/02/10/long-covid-symptoms-muscle-pain-fatigue-brain-fog-kids/9231178002/

https://jacobin.com/2021/12/right-wing-think-tanks-herd-immunity-death

Dictating a subpar education is another method.
https://jacobin.com/2018/06/public-education-privatization-koch-brothers-teachers

https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/public-education-ground-zero-radical-rights-assault-democracy-says-historian

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2023/11/07/school-voucher-program-school-choice-tennessee-lobby-for-expansion/71436751007/

Federal cash for lead pipe replacement isn't making it to Illinois communities

“I think that they’re playing games,” one congressman says.

Mother Jones

Nicole Parsons 1d ago

3/

Koch Network is so successful at this one that the American average literacy rate is down to 6th grade, with the help of Zuckerberg et al.

https://www.splcenter.org/resources/reports/public-schools-crosshairs-far-right-propaganda-and-common-core-state-standards/

To recreate Jim Crow, Koch funds re-segregation efforts in public education, subpar Christian academies, and voucher school frauds.
https://progressive.org/latest/like-dad-charles-koch-bircher-new-documents/

https://www.propublica.org/article/camden-alabama-segregated-schools-brown-v-board

Public Schools in the Crosshairs: Far-Right Propaganda and the Common Core State Standards

Across the United States, a fierce wave of resistance is engulfing the Common Core State Standards, threatening to derail this ambitious effort to lift student achievement and, more fundamentally, to undermine the very idea of public education.

Southern Poverty Law Center

Nicole Parsons 1d ago

4/

I'm now of a divided opinion on the subject of MAGA ignorance.

Blaming someone for their cognitive damage from poverty or pollution isn't fair.
https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2025/the-shocking-hazards-of-louisianas-cancer-alley

Blaming someone for their parents' belief in Trump's fascist lies isn't their fault.

Living with rickets etc is sufficient consequence.

I hold out hope that MAGA voters will realize how they've been conned by the Epstein Class.

& overcome the disadvantages that were imposed upon them by greedy psychopaths.

The Shocking Hazards of Louisiana's Cancer Alley | Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health

New research shows that the industrial pollution—and the risk to human health—on Louisiana’s Cancer Alley have been significantly underestimated.

Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health

unfmeghan 1d ago

@Npars01 as described in Brave New World

Travis F W 23h ago

@Npars01 @albertojavier @michaelgemar @Wolf be careful not to conflate ignorance and mental disability.
I am choosing to interpret "the stupids" in a political context, referring to people who *reject* wisdom for sociopolitical gains.
Social context is a much bigger factor shaping incongruous world view than measurable intellectual capacity.

@travisfw @Npars01 @michaelgemar @Wolf absolutely. I use the same definition. And that still doesn't change the outlook.

tor_haxson 1d ago

Totally Jealous that you get to read Dune for the first time !!!

James Hubbard 1d ago

@Wolf I recently had this interview show up in my recommendations. It's great especially the part about leaders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=124xCHfVUk4

DUNE author Frank Herbert: "My Arab friends wonder why it's called science fiction."

YouTube

Medea Vanamonde 🏳️‍⚧️1d ago

@Wolf @lisamelton

Butlerian Jihad Now!

Taya Nielsen 1d ago

@Wolf Wonder how Fank Herbert would feel if he could see the world today?

OV Dragonman 1d ago

@Wolf That is what I like about ScFi: it can be very prescient. If only we had listened to George Orwell, Aldus Huxley, and a host of others, and truly heard what they were trying to teach us.

@iveyline 1d ago

@Wolf Yes. AI threatens our existence.

Thijs_Goverde 1d ago

@Wolf
Yep.
I recently converted to butlerianism.
Don´t know if I'm the only follower of that faith, but I do know that I can now object to using AI on religious grounds.

Simon Zerafa 1d ago

There is a huge backstory regarding this called the "Butlearian Jihad" which is the epic conflict between Humanity and The Thinking Machines

It's a sentiment that many people now feel is very apt and relevant to today and the near future.

George Saich 1d ago

@Wolf Amen.

GrumpyOldFart 1d ago

Great book! I’ve read it over & over again & always discovered something new!

DJGummikuh 1d ago

@Wolf the sociological deepness of dune is kinda fascinating. I mean, AFTER they abolished thinking machines, the known universe essentially (still?) turned into pure feudalism, with monarchic structures at any position, which essentially is enslavement of people by others. So, thinking it through, the machines were not so much cause for enslavement as simply one tool among many

@DJGummikuh Yes. Herbert wrote Dune as a cautionary tale against misplaced trust, more than anything else.

The feudal system of his far-future polity was made necessary by the limit on communication, which was no faster than travel. Local governance had to be powerful, because it couldn't call up the line on short notice. The Emperor controls broad policy, but Dukes control local government.

DJGummikuh 18h ago

@wesdym it still would allow for self-governance at least on planet level without monarchy-like structures ^^

@DJGummikuh Sure, but that's not what the Corrino Imperium wants. The Empire wants -- indeed, demands -- local control. But they can't do that directly or in real time, due to communication limitations, so the feudal system serves that purpose. The Duke carries the Emperor's authority, locally.

What you're suggesting does become the reality in Dune, from Heretics onwards, following the collapse of the Empire.

DJGummikuh 18h ago

@wesdym yeah. The whole point I wanted to make is that "machines enslave people" as is frequently derived from Herbert's Universe is oversimplifying to the degree of being wrong, as the inhabitants of his universe managed the quasi-enslavement without thinking machines just as fine :D

Ed Wiebe 21h ago

@Wolf Butlerian refers to Samuel Butler: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erewhon

Some more specific quotes from Butler are here: https://www.clockworks2.org/wiki/index.php?title=Darwin_Among_the_Machines

Dyson’s book is great too.

Erewhon - Wikipedia

primalmotion 19h ago

@Wolf Same. I started reading the book recently and this one got me immediately

@Wolf This wasn't some prescience on Herbert's part, but instead part of a clever writing gimmick that others have used, too.

By the mid-'60s, it was obvious to smarter SF writers that computers would make realistic speculation about the future impossible, making SF writers look foolish for their wrong guesses (which many did).

There are two ways around that. One is artful vaguery. (C.J. Cherryh has used that a lot.) Herbert took the other path:

/2

@Wolf 2/ Simply abolish tech higher than you're comfortable dealing with, so that it's not a problem. (This was the method of the reimagined BSG, for example.) The Butlerian Jihad was an artful way to remove runaway tech that he had no hope of predicting, so that he could control far-future tech as he preferred.

It comes across as prescient because Herbert was such a good writer. But this passage is artful service to a practical writing device.

@Wolf The fear of cybernetics