Mastodawn

CyberFrog 1d ago

1.3.6.1.4.1.61513

Solar panel waste is not something you need to concern yourself with. Even if people are upgrading panels after 10 years this waste is insignificant compared to sooooooooo many things. Recycling materials in solar panels is probably a good idea, but it's not something to stop you getting panels today.

If waste is a concern for you, you should be switching to solar panels since they produce so little waste compared to other energies like coal. Like hundreds of times less. You probably should be caring more about, tires, mattresses, single use plastics, vapes, the packaging everything comes before solar panels.

(This brought to you by ABC fearmongering)

1.3.6.1.4.1.61513 1d ago

ABC reports 90,000 tonnes of solar panels in 2030 waste. The below chart represents disposed waste in 2022-2023 financial year - that is, waste that wasn't recycled. Note how high is textiles is compared to what solar panels are expected to be.

1.3.6.1.4.1.61513 1d ago

Like taking the $24.7 million from this and putting that money into battery,solar,wind reducing the coal by products would probably have a better reduction on waste

jablkoziemne 1d ago

@xssfox I dont understand.
You brought figure of 90000 tones of predicted waste from solar panels, and then provided chart that shows how much money is spent to dispose of waste by category.

How am I suposed to compare those two? Also isnt the chart only for money spent on unrecycled materials? What about the statistic for the ones tgat got sorted and recycled properly?

And how should i interpret the result then? Big money spent good or is it bad?

1.3.6.1.4.1.61513 1d ago

@jablkoziemne the chart shows tonnes, not money. That money is for the recycling plant for solar panels

jablkoziemne 1d ago

@xssfox oh, thanks.
But still i find it somewhat difficult to compare these two as I dont know how much % by material of solar panels gets recycled compared to not.

1.3.6.1.4.1.61513 1d ago

@jablkoziemne you can assume none at the moment

';DROP TABLE foxes;--1d ago

@xssfox A solar panel is mostly glass by weight right?

And they're not even a big fraction of the 'glass" category.

@xssfox is that ash from coal fired plants?

Daniel Carosone 1d ago

@warkolm @xssfox it's just some guy called Ash. His name used to be Waste Georg but he got rid of that

ROTOPE~1 ⭐️1d ago

@uep @warkolm @xssfox it's this kid, catching tons and tons of wild animals and dropping them off at a pokécenter never to see daylight again.

CyberFrog 1d ago

@warkolm @xssfox I believe so, on satellite maps in Australia (and other places) you can see giant fields of ash where they dump it from power plants and bulldoze it flat again in some places, truly it's a staggering amount of crap to throw into the environment

Alun Jones 1d ago

@xssfox Out of curiosity, I did a quick search for "250W solar panel weight". Around 18-20kg seems to be the consensus. So 90,000 tonnes is 4.5-5 million 250W panels being trashed - per year?!

Osteopenia Powers ;1d ago

@xssfox
So in Australia, solar panel waste is ~ 2% of all building and demolition waste? Even that seems high.

Alex von Kitchen 1d ago

@xssfox wouldn't panels removed after 10 years go to a second hand market?

Erica Briony.1d ago

@Dangerous_beans @xssfox I think there's laws against using second hand ones, which is part of the problem.. pretty sure you can't even upgrade by adding more later without replacing them all.. could be wrong on that but i know there's some wasteful laws about systems

1.3.6.1.4.1.61513 1d ago

@steadilyebbing @Dangerous_beans not sure about laws but from personal experience, it's actually kind of annoying to repurpose them. When getting them off the roof its easy to crack them. But yes, part of the plan I believe is to have somewhere that can take these panels in, test / validate them, then repurpose them.

The panels are so cheap now however that it doesn't really make money since to mess around with repurposing old panels when much of the cost is in cabling, install, inverter ect...

CyberFrog 1d ago

@xssfox @steadilyebbing @Dangerous_beans modern high performance solar panels also lose some efficiency over time, if your panel started at 25% conversion efficiency it is likely around 10% after 10 years of usage or something like that, probably not worth it, just get new ones (the tech is cheaper and better for new ones anyway)

@froge @Dangerous_beans @xssfox @steadilyebbing The long term degradation numbers are generally better than expected on this - a meta-analysis last year found average <1%/year reduction, so the average 10 year old panel is still around 90% of new.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/391850534_Determinants_of_the_long-term_degradation_rate_of_photovoltaic_modules_A_meta-analysis

As I understand it one of the big issues here is outliers, though - if one panel in your string develops a crack or another issue then you'd have to convince an installer to just replace that panel, instead of all of them.

Christian Stadelmann 1d ago

@froge @Dangerous_beans @xssfox @steadilyebbing Are you sure about this? We had an initiative in Erlangen, Germany, who took 20+ years old panels, professionally cleaned them and measured their performance. Most of the panels still had 90%+ of their original power/efficiency. And I've heard from people who worked on this in university that the average modules sold in Germany (at least between 2000 and 2010) commonly show this behavior.

Or does this primarily affect newer low quality panels?

CyberFrog 15h ago

@genodeftest @Dangerous_beans @xssfox @steadilyebbing this is probably correct, I think I messed up the numbers from memory here, the actual degradation rate is around 1% of the total conversion efficiency per year (depending on solar panel design).

I had originally thought it was a flat 1% loss of conversion efficiency per year, which is actually a much worse degradation rate.

so yeah most common panel designs should actually be around 90% of their original efficiency after about 10-15 years (depending on design) I think

Witton says FUCK ICE 1d ago

@steadilyebbing @Dangerous_beans

This is something I used to work on a bit in previous jobs

@xssfox is spot on here, lots more value in 'balance of system' components vs panels, but there's definitely a nascent second hand market emerging

Also a few companies working on how to economically recycle end of life panels, like Solar Cycle and PV Cycle

Once the first gen solar farms start coming offline then there will be enough volume for the recycling/reuse markets to really scale

@steadilyebbing @Dangerous_beans @xssfox Yes, and I think the regulations and the business factors both act against reuse here.

A friend of mine has collected about 40kW of free panels taken off mostly commercial roofs. Many apparently no longer met the safety standard to go back on after being taken off for other works. They're not 100% good panels, but they're mostly good - and he's got the time and inclination to sort through them and make up strings for his off-grid setup.

Then add the risk to an installer of being called back out because of a problem with reused panels, the labour cost of installing a panel relative to the low cost of new panels, and the extra labour cost of checking old panels before putting them back on...

(Agree with @xssfox's original post that in the big picture none of this is so bad, though.)

Ray McCarthy 1d ago

@steadilyebbing @Dangerous_beans @xssfox
No law in Ireland or UK about using second hand.
Obviously grant aided install needs new materials.

bencourtice 1d ago

@steadilyebbing @Dangerous_beans @xssfox I think you can add more later, but only if they are compatible with your current panels and inverter - if not, you need them to be installed as a separate string of panels with their own new inverter. Not sure there's any law against reusing old ones, but like many things these days they are fairly cheap new, and installation labour is not, so people just get new ones

Christian Stadelmann 1d ago

@Dangerous_beans @xssfox In Germany, there is some second hand market activity for 20+ years old panels. They are often used for smaller setups, e. g. putting 1-2 on your balcony or terrace or the like.

';DROP TABLE foxes;--1d ago

@xssfox They should just burn the used solar panels, and put the waste into the air, just like coal.

But really, the "logistics problem" is that they're simply not worth recycling. They're magic. A layer of silicon (sand, not rare!) less than the thickness of a hair, micrograms of dopant, glass, plastic, and a little aluminium, and it makes electricity.

It makes about as much sense as a scheme to gather empty cereal boxes and refill. If you buried in landfill, nothing bad would come out.

@DropTableFoxes @xssfox yup and anyway there was an article just yesterday I think saying that 25yo polycrystalline cells are still making useful amounts of power ... it's simply not true that at the end of 10 years the cells are all used up and ready to throw away.

s0 Is Not A Sysadmin 1d ago

@nickzoic @DropTableFoxes @xssfox abc reporters stop being pathologically addicted to credulous clickbait fearmongering in service of the very evils you claim to oppose challenge

Krahabors 1d ago

@xssfox https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtQ9nt2ZeGM

You are being misled about renewable energy technology.

Let's learn and grow. New things are cool!Links 'n' stuff down below. Lots of links.First, the "clean version." Please pass that around.https://youtu.be/Zgxb...

YouTube

Nafeon the Bear 1d ago

@xssfox We engineered a way in Germany to recycle 99% of a solar panel it is not mass production ready, yet. But it is really cool.

The Video I have for it is in German though.

Ray McCarthy 1d ago

@xssfox
Recent tests suggest panels may still give 80% after 20 years.
The frame is aluminium alloy.
The front is glass.
Recent ones are double sided glass.
We won't run out of glass, aluminium or silicon.

💙🩷💜Ⓑⓡⓔⓣⓣ🐡🍉🐧1d ago

@[email protected] China has started large scale panel recycling recently too

Misuse Case 1d ago

@xssfox @schmidt_fu It is really funny that renewables people are now on the receiving end of “what about the waste” handwringing funded by the fossil fuel industry, like fission power has been for decades while burning fossil fuels pollute the air and dump poisons in the water.

Kerplunk 1d ago

Solar panel waste is not something you need to concern yourself with. Even if people are upgrading panels after 10 years

Modern Glass Glass panels are warrantied to give 85% of rated output for 25 or even 30 years.

Some Solar Farms will repanel after 10 years as a tax or subvention ruse, the panels should be offered for a fair price and can be reused.

A friend paid 10 Euro per panel when he purchased 100 second hand 10 years ago

They still provide power for electric car and house

@xssfox I think a better way of looking at it is that we need every solar panel to work at maximum efficiency and longevity to increase the rate of fossil fuel retirement. Currently, if you want to upgrade your rooftop solar, or if just one panel develops a fault, it's likely ALL the panels will go to waste. There are panels only a few years into their 20 year lifespan being buried. The more we do that, the longer the transition will take.

1.3.6.1.4.1.61513 1d ago

@AvonVilla will we really ever be bottlenecked on panels though?

@xssfox Depends on how big you want the bottle to be. The current growth in renewables is roughly equivalent to the increase in energy demand created by economic/population growth and development. AI will make energy demand worse. Fossil fuel use is at best stable, emissions are STILL rising. We're supposed to be reducing emissions, so arguably we are in a bottleneck right now.

I agree with your sentiment that FF industry gaslighting is despicable.

Marenzers 1d ago

@AvonVilla @xssfox a dead panel would bring down production in a serial-wired series until it is removed, yeah. Annoying, but things break down. It happens.

@xssfox We’ve got 26 250W panels on the roof, they’ve been there 13 years. They still peak at 259W, compared to 265W when they were new. In 13 years, they’ll probably still be doing more than their rated output.

They’re not even good panels - some elcheapo Chinesium stuff put up in the solar install boom of 2013.

I’d say they’ll probably outlast me.

Marenzers 1d ago

@xssfox Even places that aren't ideal for solar can still do solar. My west-facing apartment 'balcony' can fit some solar panels and it manages to grab enough power from the little sun we get to keep phones and accessories such as headphones charged. Every now and then I can dump the excess into my electric bike.

Does it cut even in cost versus return? Maybe in 5-10 years, but that's not the point. Not only do I have a backup in case of grid outages, but I'm also helping along the transition away from fossil fuel electricity.

Solar is the fucking GOAT. Okay really hydroelectric is the strongest renewable and wind is crazy good too, but I like sipping on star juice, okay?

@xssfox my panels are about ten years old and still functioning as expected. When it comes time to recycle, they are mostly glass and aluminum. Two of the easiest materials to recycle.