McNadoMDNothing gives Israel a special right to invade neighbors, bulldoze their homes, and create a DMZ.
US voters must make anyone supporting the Israeli state unelectable until support for this bullshit stops.
Netraven@mcnado Ultimately it comes to AIPAC and shadow money which banks are happy to facilitate. Unless the banks are regulated and forced to pay for their crimes, then this will never stop. The banks can't be regulated without getting good candidates in... which can't get in because... circular logic. We're back to the billions of dollars spent bribing officials.
ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIESyeah but despite all of the shadow money we can still vote
especially in the primaries coming up
so many elections are decided by such a small percentage
and such a large percentage don't vote
yeah not all of them are leftists but if leftists did show up imagine the difference
the problem is this sort of mindless cynicism, that something is inevitable. it's not
vote, assholes
why would anyone give dark money what it wants by not voting?
Pine Affinitywhy would I vote for this party?
https://www.commondreams.org/news/schumer-israel-aid
@benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
https://www.commondreams.org/news/schumer-israel-aid
@benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
'No, That Is Not Your Job,' Say Critics After Schumer Claims 'Job' Is to 'Fight for Aid to Israel' | Common Dreams
"Seventy-five percent of Democratic voters oppose sending Israel more military aid, as do 66% of independents and 60% of Americans overall," noted one domestic policy expert.
@Pine_Affinity @Netraven @mcnado
you don't vote for them
you show up in the primaries and you replace them
the problem is this "dems suck" whine then people don't show up in the primaries out of useless pathetic indolence. so nothing changes
The Hill believes a leadership change is unlikely.
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5807683-schumer-future-senate-leadership/
@benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5807683-schumer-future-senate-leadership/
@benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
@Pine_Affinity @Netraven @mcnado
this is an inversion of responsibility
if you vote, the party answers to you
if you don't vote, the party answers to dark money and spineless centrists who do vote
if we vote, we may fail. if we don't vote, we *will* fail. so why would you want to define your political consciousness as acceptance of fascism? you understand that is what your cynical "unlikely" is about right? cynicism is acceptance. do you accept fascism? i don't think so. so vote
@Pine_Affinity @Netraven @mcnado
by voting
sitting back and passing your responsibility to dem leadership to magically change is absurdity
i am confused why you think that's a valid position
you mob the primaries, you replace them
proof it works?
mamdani
dem centrists opposed him every step of the way. and yet he won
how?
because people showed the fuck up
you have to change the way you think about the problem
don't depend upon assholes who will never change to change
vote
@Pine_Affinity @Netraven @mcnado
if no one on the left shows up, spineless corporatist dems win, because spineless corporatist dems show up to vote
but what you are saying is you want people you know are rotten to the core to suddenly and magically grow a conscience and resign?
rather than, you know, just getting off your ass and voting them out?
that's the way it works
why would you argue against the only way to remove them, and argue for a behavior which ensures their continuing power?
Because that doesn’t work.
JakeKb@Pine_Affinity @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado I really don't understand why can't Americans accept that the democratic party is an imperialist party for the elites that doesn't answer to its people. Why can't you build actual grassroot movements and put forward your own candidates that are not compromised by the democratic party systems of control? Far easier task than changing the democratic party from within.
@JakeKb @Pine_Affinity @Netraven @mcnado
a 3rd party divides the left vote and ensures MAGA domination
we need to take over the democrats. i don't like it. it's just the most feasible option
the problem with international observers like yourself is you come from a different voting system
the usa is FPTP
meaning there will only ever be 2 parties (we need RCV to fix that)
it's not corruption, it's math
educate yourself before commenting on the matter next time:
@Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
and that's on you. because you didn't show up in the primaries to vote him out
🏴☠️ regor 🐦⬛@benroyce @[email protected] @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado goddamn some holier-than-thou pricks just refuse to understand the assignment.
@roger @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
some people don't care about fixing the world or righting wrongs
their primary concern is rationalizing to themselves their entitlement to sit it out and whine
they don't want to sully their magical sense of purity. their self-regard is their highest concern, they do not care if the country is fascist. as long as they get to say "not my fault" when we're going to concentration camps. even though it is their fault, because they did not participate
@benroyce @roger @Netraven @mcnado You are definitely not fixing the world by voting for democrats. Same bombs will fall on the same people and the same elites will keep profiting. If you are willing to throw everyone outside the US under the bus just to get some sense of normality within your country, then we don't have the same goals.
@JakeKb @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado yes, an not voting is going so well? You really made the world so much safer staying home? Palestine is free? You refuse to listen to Ben's clear plan to use the existing *clearly flawed* political machinery to drag the Overton window to the left. Good lord, no one has said the democratic party is going to magically fix the world.
Sulking is just obeying in advance. You're either a troll or willfully ignorant.
@roger @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado I am not an American so to me there is no difference which president sends the bombs. What I do know is that historically fascism is defeated on the streets, not the ballot box. If all you can do politically is vote for the least worst option, you will always end up in this point just later. Why can't you channel all that energy instead to build something for yourselves, not controlled by big money and actually by the people?
@benroyce @roger @Netraven @mcnado That's not really an argument. You can fight against the 2 party system, you can even fight to dismantle the 2 party system and go for proportional representation. Other countries had 2 party systems and dismantled them. You choose not to and you end up with the same policies. I understand perfectly well that it is not easy, but telling me that this is the only way is what is actually defeatist.
@JakeKb @roger @Netraven @mcnado
jake:
duverger's law
it's not corruption, it's just math
you come from another voting system where 3rd party is easy
that is not the way it is in the usa
you don't understand that
but you continue to argue from ignorance, and you are helping MAGA
PLEASE educate yourself and stop spreading lies to help MAGA
@benroyce @roger @Netraven @mcnado You didn't even read my comment. I make a simple argument from history that you can fight those systems with enough popular support, that is if you want to. We had an actual dictatorship in my country, supported by the US and we took it down. How? Through peoples movements, that how it works. You just don't want actual change that's the problem.
@JakeKb @roger @Netraven @mcnado
jake i don't know how to say it to you: you're ignorant. you're pridefully ignorant. will you please read the link on duverger's law
we CAN have stable viable third parties in the usa if we get ranked choice voting which is creeping in
until then your entire rationale is only activley helping MAGA win
will you please fucking think, read, understand, and then comment on a topic you currently do NOT understand
math does not lie jake
Deb Nam-KraneYou don't care which president sends the bombs? If you think Palestine would have suffered as much under Harris, you're delusional. She wasn't the one who wanted to turn Gaza into the Riviera of the Middle East. She also wouldn't have attacked and threatened numerous countries in less than a year and a half. And screwed Ukraine.
Adults frequently have to choose between bad options. Pretending that you don't literally makes everything worse.
@dnkboston @roger @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado I definitely think that because Wesley Clark leaked the memo 25 years ago. 7 countries in 5 years, it just took them longer. Iraq under Bush, then Libya and Syria under Obama and all the rest until Iran under Trump. Both democrats and republicans did that. Thinking that this is decided by who's in office is what is actually delusional.
@dnkboston @roger @benroyce @mcnado I am pointing to you that in the last 25 years it is a bipartisan decision to blow up the middle east. Just because Trump is more insane and willing to rush invasions and not make excuses, doesn't make him significantly different. The goal is the same, US dominance through force. And Harris was part of the admin that started the gaza genocide, so no I don't think it would be much different, just less blatant. At least I have evidence for my arguments.
@JakeKb @dnkboston @roger @mcnado
deb is not a dude, jackass
@benroyce @dnkboston @roger @mcnado Sorry, I use dude more generally, particularly for people who insult me, but I will correct it if they find it offensive.
@JakeKb @dnkboston @roger @mcnado
it might also be nice that you
1. understand a topic, such as FPTP voting, before championing a behavior like 3rd party voting that only helps MAGA in the rotten american voting system
2. not insist on smearing someone with an accusation like "you just want dems" and when they make the effort to correct you you still insist on pursuing the smear
insults, no insults, bad word choice, good word choice, whatever
intellectual honesty is what is desired
@benroyce @dnkboston @roger @mcnado I am not smearing you, this is the impression I get when all you say is vote for democrats. I don't see any bigger campaigning from your side at least from here. Also I fully understand the system and think you can beat it. You followed the vote blue no matter who path and got Trump twice, if you had focused your energy elsewhere maybe you would have been able to challenge both parties. Put movements before parties, not the other way around.
Bent Chinrest@JakeKb @benroyce @dnkboston @roger @mcnado you, my dude, keep saying, mate, that you are "not in the US"
It's puzzling then, pal, why you feel entitled to educate us, your buddies, on what we ought to do. Provided, friend, that your insights are courtesy of second-hand reports it is difficult, chum, to refrain from asking you, kindly, to silently observe in order to diminish your ignorance, rather than parade it
It's puzzling then, pal, why you feel entitled to educate us, your buddies, on what we ought to do. Provided, friend, that your insights are courtesy of second-hand reports it is difficult, chum, to refrain from asking you, kindly, to silently observe in order to diminish your ignorance, rather than parade it
@paneerakbari @benroyce @dnkboston @roger @mcnado I would really like to not have to bother with you, but you are the ones who have military bases in my country and an embassy that in the past imposed dictatorships on us. I really wish I could ignore you but until you stop interfering in our politics, someone has to tell you what your foreign policy actually does and push you to think of the people who really suffer as a result.
obscurestar@JakeKb @dnkboston @roger @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
So you thought, since you're comfortable, you can sit on your moral high horse and PUNISH the minorities in the US because they didn't have thew numbers to make the Dems pure enough for YOU.
LGBT, PoC, and immigrants are all suffering and because of narcissistic fucks like you, we are now fighting for our own lives so we have less resources to fight for Palestine and Ukraine.
All of that is on you. Grow the fuck up.
@obscurestar @dnkboston @roger @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado Is it a moral high horse to ask you not to support people who bomb civilians? And are people who point to you that the democrats support such policies the problem? Not the psychopathic elites that fund and control the democratic party? If you view the struggle of minorities in the US as more important than the struggle of victims of US imperialism, then you are not arguing for liberation, but for supremacy. For me, its the same fight.
@JakeKb @obscurestar @dnkboston @roger @mcnado
i'll tell you what is not a moral high horse: not voting, helping MAGA win, so more civilians are bombed
all because you don't want to deal with real world choices, you want perfection. immature entitlement
@benroyce @obscurestar @dnkboston @roger @Netraven @mcnado Wanting not to support a genocide is wanting perfection? I am sorry, I really thought Trumps brutality against his own people was a great opportunity for Americans to self reflect, empathize with the victims of your imperialism and finally push for actual change to make life better for everyone. This pushback I get proves that all you want is 'normal' in the imperial core. We clearly want different things.
You want even more blood in our streets and even less partipation by non-MAGA and non-billionaires in voting booths. So yes, we do.
@JakeKb @obscurestar @dnkboston @roger @mcnado
the dems and the gop are not the same on the issue. but even if you view them the same, there are other issues you should care about. but you don't. you're not a moral person, you're doing a stunt
you vote for the least bad choice, and you iterate to better
if you don't vote, you help MAGA win, and you are helping to bomb people
that's just the reality
but real choices don't mean anything to you. you're immature and entitled
@benroyce @obscurestar @dnkboston @roger @Netraven @mcnado Did the dems not vote for bombs for Israel on every single occasion? They are definitely not better on the issue of imperialism, they just do it differently. Just say you only care about Americans having a normal life exploiting the rest of the world and leave it there, but calling me the immoral one because I don't advocate for people who do genocides is laughable.
@JakeKb @obscurestar @dnkboston @roger @mcnado
if you think "BoTh SiDeS tHe SaMe" you are not immoral, you are immoral and a moron
not voting/ voting 3rd party gets us MAGA. who are worse on Gaza. and trans rights, climate, healthcare, women's rights, immigrants, etc
but you don't care about that. because again, morality isn't your concern, stunt making is
you are an entitled, immature loser helping MAGA win. and too stupid to see that
@benroyce @obscurestar @dnkboston @roger @Netraven @mcnado On the issue of imperialism and especially Israel there are plenty evidence that they are the same. You can ignore the facts and whitewash the dems all you want, but it will always come back and haunt you. I don't care if you vote tactically, but it is clear that all you do is pr for the dems and try to stop people pushing for meaningful change. You can try to censor me but eventually you will have to deal with the rot in your party.
@JakeKb @obscurestar @dnkboston @roger @mcnado yes we have to show up in the primaries and get left candidates. while you argue against that. like you argue for helping MAGA win but don't care or know that is the effect of your words
Jake: i do not respect you. I think you're entitled, immature, immoral, and you think you can lecture self-destructive bullshit on topics you don't understand
You are helping MAGA. You are helping to bomb people. You're too much of a fucking moron to see
@benroyce @obscurestar @dnkboston @roger @Netraven @mcnado Thinking that MAGA will go away if you vote is also laughable. You voted him out in 2020, how did it go in 2024? Should you start dealing with more structural issues maybe instead of calling people who raise perfectly valid concerns morons? You can vote him out again, but the system of fascism and imperialism will remain in place and will bring another Trump in 5-10 years. That's the most likely outcome of your tactics.
@JakeKb @obscurestar @dnkboston @roger
@mcnado
Unread
Uninterested
You're an uneducated immoral joke working very hard to help MAGA. That is all you are. Fuck off loser
@benroyce @obscurestar @dnkboston @roger @mcnado A perfect way of conceding the argument, last time you lost an argument to me you didn't even respond. For people who skipped the rest, the summary is this: You can vote for a democrat tactically but only as part of a bigger movement which is always prioritized and aimed at dismantling the institutions of empire that oppress minorities within US boarders and abroad. If you are only voting blue every 4 years you are not doing anything meaningful.
@JakeKb The most dishonest summary I have ever seen. But anyone who reads this thread will be able to see what you actually said.
@dnkboston @benroyce @obscurestar @roger @mcnado I had limited characters to put everything together, I also wanted to add that whitewashing imperialists and zionists democrats and doing pr for them is wrong, but I think it is sufficient to say that you should prioritize the anti imperialist movement over voting dems. I might have missed something else too, but that should suffice.
@JakeKb Again, anyone who reads the thread will know that is a dishonest summary, especially the part about anyone doing "pr" for centrist democrats.
Rodrigo Santamaría@benroyce @JakeKb @obscurestar @dnkboston @roger @mcnado i understand both of your arguments, my position is that voting serves for very little, but also is effortless. So I tend to vote and the dedicate my efforts to local projects, direct action, etc.
Definitely, you too are not enemies, please have that in mind. Peace :)
jmjm@benroyce @JakeKb @obscurestar @dnkboston @roger @mcnado
An immoron.
You really don't have a clue about how empires work. Most US minorities are also victims of American imperialism.
You find the candidate least likely to bomb people in the primaries and vote for that one. In the general, you vote for the one who will bomb the fewest.
Funny though that you're worried about people being bombed when you've advised that we fight in the streets to somehow build something rather than vote. But sure.
@dnkboston @obscurestar @roger @benroyce @mcnado I am saying that US minorities are also victims of US imperialism, which is why I see their struggle as a common one but I don't see it as more important. The candidates you vote, will eventually vote for bombings because its a party policy. The party will shape them to do the party's bidding, not the other way around, just look at all those candidates who sold out eventually. The final point you make is too incoherent for me to reply.
@JakeKb @dnkboston @obscurestar @roger @mcnado
"I see their struggle as a common one but I don't see it as more important"
no
what you're saying is you don't give a shit about them at all. you know the dems are better for them. so even if you think "BoTh SiDeS tHe SaMe" on Gaza, which isn't even true, you're willing to throw them under the bus for your stunt making
you're not a moral person. you're an immature entitled moron arguing to help MAGA win and you don't know that and you don't care
The final point I made refers to your statements that these are resolved in the streets, so I would agree with your assessment.
peachfront@dnkboston @JakeKb @roger @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
and they knew all this BEFORE the election, because Kushner said BEFORE the election that he planned to displace the residents of Gaza and turn their country over to... real estate developers...
(prob. real estate developers who shared his wife's last name!)
genocide to enrich a man who is already a billionaire is truly the most shameful form of genocide...
Pino Carafa@JakeKb @benroyce @roger @Netraven @mcnado once again for the slow folks at the back of the class.
A *vote* is just a snapshot. If there are only two options. A. Fascist and B. Almost Fascist you use that vote and vote for B.
When A. wins, all is lost. When B. wins, it sucks. But then you have 1460 days until the next election. And maybe it will take several times 1460 days. That sucks even more.
But losing it all to fascism cannot be tolerated.
@JakeKb @benroyce @roger @Netraven @mcnado But people prefer to sit on their arse for 1460 days and then go "Oh LoOk BoTh SiDeS BaD So i WoN't VoTe" and then post cynical dreck on Social Media about how "rotten" "the system" is, and repeat that self defeating shit every 4 years. What is rotten is your self indulgent self pitying apathetic mush for brains.
haui ☭
🇵🇸I share your frustration. It is pretty much the same everywhere.
But it is also not completely true. People are organizing. Historically, this has always happened. Capitalist systems always decay into fascism at some point and the people take time to organize and grasp the issue.
There are also proven methods to work against this. Voting is provides the needed slowdown and organizing is sewing the parachutes while approaching the inevitable cliff.
@haui Absolutely, and of course my rant was directed at those who do actually sing that siren song of capitulation. Those who work their arses of to bring on change, I'll salute.
Speed demon 🇪🇺 🇳🇴🇺🇦🇵🇸@hakona @JakeKb @benroyce @roger @Netraven @mcnado Exactly. And the stronger you feel the more you should feel compelled to canvas, support, work your arse off for those candidates that DO deserve your support. And in your 2 party system such candidates have no choice but to present themselves as "GOP" or Dem.
A third party CAN be created but the amount of effort to pull THAT off would be gargantuan. Don't expect to see the fruits of THAT effort in your lifetime if you're over 40.
@hakona @JakeKb @benroyce @roger @Netraven @mcnado But maybe it's something that needs to be done. Long term thinking doesn't seem to be US citizens' strong point, but as the Dutch saying goes: "boompje groot, plantertje dood". By the time a tree is mature, its planter will have died of old age. Why bother? For your children's children.
LukefromDC@rozeboosje @hakona @JakeKb @benroyce @roger @Netraven @mcnado There is a quote from Napoleon of all folks that is apt here. Napoleon once ordered trees planted on French roads to shade his troops marching off to his wars. He was told the trees would not grow to maturity anytime soon, his response was "then we must start at once!"
@benroyce These people are the compostable straw users of democracy. The actually useless activity keeps their extremely shallow consciences clear but does less than nothing to address the microplastics already circulating in their organs and bloodstream. But it's easier than fighting for policies that end industrial plastic pollution.
Let me not go on Toxic Purity (TM) too much now...