McNadoMDNothing gives Israel a special right to invade neighbors, bulldoze their homes, and create a DMZ.
US voters must make anyone supporting the Israeli state unelectable until support for this bullshit stops.
Netraven@mcnado Ultimately it comes to AIPAC and shadow money which banks are happy to facilitate. Unless the banks are regulated and forced to pay for their crimes, then this will never stop. The banks can't be regulated without getting good candidates in... which can't get in because... circular logic. We're back to the billions of dollars spent bribing officials.
ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIESyeah but despite all of the shadow money we can still vote
especially in the primaries coming up
so many elections are decided by such a small percentage
and such a large percentage don't vote
yeah not all of them are leftists but if leftists did show up imagine the difference
the problem is this sort of mindless cynicism, that something is inevitable. it's not
vote, assholes
why would anyone give dark money what it wants by not voting?
Pine Affinitywhy would I vote for this party?
https://www.commondreams.org/news/schumer-israel-aid
@benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
https://www.commondreams.org/news/schumer-israel-aid
@benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
'No, That Is Not Your Job,' Say Critics After Schumer Claims 'Job' Is to 'Fight for Aid to Israel' | Common Dreams
"Seventy-five percent of Democratic voters oppose sending Israel more military aid, as do 66% of independents and 60% of Americans overall," noted one domestic policy expert.
@Pine_Affinity @Netraven @mcnado
you don't vote for them
you show up in the primaries and you replace them
the problem is this "dems suck" whine then people don't show up in the primaries out of useless pathetic indolence. so nothing changes
The Hill believes a leadership change is unlikely.
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5807683-schumer-future-senate-leadership/
@benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5807683-schumer-future-senate-leadership/
@benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
@Pine_Affinity @Netraven @mcnado
this is an inversion of responsibility
if you vote, the party answers to you
if you don't vote, the party answers to dark money and spineless centrists who do vote
if we vote, we may fail. if we don't vote, we *will* fail. so why would you want to define your political consciousness as acceptance of fascism? you understand that is what your cynical "unlikely" is about right? cynicism is acceptance. do you accept fascism? i don't think so. so vote
@Pine_Affinity @Netraven @mcnado
by voting
sitting back and passing your responsibility to dem leadership to magically change is absurdity
i am confused why you think that's a valid position
you mob the primaries, you replace them
proof it works?
mamdani
dem centrists opposed him every step of the way. and yet he won
how?
because people showed the fuck up
you have to change the way you think about the problem
don't depend upon assholes who will never change to change
vote
@Pine_Affinity @Netraven @mcnado
if no one on the left shows up, spineless corporatist dems win, because spineless corporatist dems show up to vote
but what you are saying is you want people you know are rotten to the core to suddenly and magically grow a conscience and resign?
rather than, you know, just getting off your ass and voting them out?
that's the way it works
why would you argue against the only way to remove them, and argue for a behavior which ensures their continuing power?
Because that doesn’t work.
JakeKb@Pine_Affinity @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado I really don't understand why can't Americans accept that the democratic party is an imperialist party for the elites that doesn't answer to its people. Why can't you build actual grassroot movements and put forward your own candidates that are not compromised by the democratic party systems of control? Far easier task than changing the democratic party from within.
@Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
on the contrary, it's people not voting because they are uneducated how our voting system works that makes us stuck
we can't have 3rd parties
not because of corruption, but because of math
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law
we need ranked choice voting to fix that
then we can have stable viable 3rd parties
Humphrey ArcherNo
Factually and historically false.
We got here BECAUSE "didn't vote" is the largest bloc, and instead of leaning in to bends things positive, they stood back and just let the Right snatch the victory, over, and over, and over, and over again
We got here because people who could have helped prevent Citizens United, didn't
Was Joe Biden voted into office? Did he then arm Israel to the teeth despite national and international law?
Was Biden better than the Orange guy?
Was Kamal better than the Orange guy?
We got the worst option because people who should have voted for her, just never showed up
Biden was outmaneuvered on Palestine by the worst man on the planet.
@screwturn @JakeKb @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
@screwturn @JakeKb @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
@Pine_Affinity
Hey, can you please indicate who you are responding to?
It would make things a lot easier to follow if you had the name of the person you are responding to first, then your response, then the cc's
Dopes The Frogman@Pine_Affinity @screwturn @JakeKb @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado seriously, this orange turd was literally Pandora box and he was opened not once, but twice, and now we're seeing the fallout
haui ☭🇵🇸I agree with you that there is a qualitative difference between them and that not voting at all or even voting for trump is beyond stupid.
Still, blaming the current situation solely on them is ignoring reality. Every US president has killed many thousands of people, many of them noncombatants.
The USA is an imperialist state which is controlled by capitalists. They are the driving force behind this.
It is like pumping the brakes one meter before the cliff. People need to organize
CynBlogger ❌👑@screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
Thus following the great American low-voter-turnout tradition, which hasn’t seen voter participation great than 63% in over 100 years; midterms average around 40%.
Threadbane@cynblogger @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
And be sure to A. Register as a Republican B. Vote a straight Democratic ticket (or for the independent where Right Wing poseurs are running as Democrats, like in Nebraska). Registering Republican will increase the chances that your votes will not be thrown out or that your registration will not simple vanish.
And be sure to A. Register as a Republican B. Vote a straight Democratic ticket (or for the independent where Right Wing poseurs are running as Democrats, like in Nebraska). Registering Republican will increase the chances that your votes will not be thrown out or that your registration will not simple vanish.
Tofu Golem@screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
Sorry, but I lay this at the feet of Democratic politicians. They decided that they wanted votes from conservative voters and did not want votes from liberal voters.
The conservative voters did not vote for them because they have been brainwashed to believe that all Dems are demons.
The liberal voters didn't vote because they knew Dem politicians would do what conservative voters want, but not what they wanted.
If the Dems wanted votes from liberal voters, they would have done liberal things.
@Tofu_Golem @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
nope
if you show up, especially in the primaries, you get the candidates you want
if you don't, you don't
bad candidates do not cause lack of voting
lack of voting causes bad candidates
you have the cause and effect reversed and are abrogating a simple effort to make your will known. and for what? ego masturbation over toxic idealism?
not voting is monumentally stupid, and is the cause of our problems as much as MAGA
@benroyce @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
Ah yes.
That bit of magical thinking.
We've been over this before.
If both parties only want votes from conservative voters, and neither party wants votes from liberal voters, there isn't a damn thing liberal voters can do.
Voting for conservative candidates will not cause them to suddenly behave like liberals. That is not how democracy works.
If Dem politicians wanted votes from liberal voters, they would do liberal things.
They do not, and you cannot blame the voters.
Blame the corrupt campaign finance system that causes both parties to pursue the same set of voters.
@Tofu_Golem @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
"If both parties only want"
what is this bullshit?
who fucking gives a shit what they want. it's a red herring
did you forget the lesson of mamdani?
centrists opposed him in the primaries
people showed up and voted for him
centrists opposed him in the general
people showed up and voted for him
you just fucking vote
"but centrists-"
who fucking gives a shit
all you're saying is you have an unhealthy, pointless obsession
@benroyce @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
Yes. We can get a few through from time to time, and that's great.
The primaries are a good time to try and make a difference. I'll agree with you there.
But showing up for the general when there are no good candidates in most elections?
That's a loser's game.
The establishment Dems have made it clear that they don't want our votes, so they shouldn't complain when we stay home on election day in the general election.
They knew damn well that their position on Israel cost them the 2024 election, AND THEY ARE STILL SUPPORTING ISRAEL. They know damn well that their support of Israel will cost them even more in future elections, and they will not stop doing it, and every time you blame the voters for that, you are providing cover for them.
My Dude
Variance is the key to ALL process improvement
Both parties supported atrocious behavior in the Middle East, but they varied in the kind and the degree. One is a better option than the other - as we have very clearly seen in the last year
So you pick the better of the two, and keep iterating.
@Tofu_Golem @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
"But showing up for the general when there are no good candidates in most elections?"
are you honestly saying that, for example, you see no substantive meaningful difference between harris and trump?
is this a statement of profound ignorance or dishonesty?
do you think it doesn't matter?
you're just an edgelord?
what?
@benroyce @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
Harris does not want my vote.
If she wanted my vote, at the bare minimum, she would stop supporting Israel and would try to do more liberal things.
Even knowing that her support of Israel cost her the election, she has not indicated a willingness to change positions.
If Democratic politicians wanted votes from liberal voters, they would do liberal things. They do not want votes from liberal voters.
I did the "just vote harder" thing for decades, and the entire time, the Democratic Party slipped further and further to the right.
I must admit that I find this perspective both very annoying and circular.
Why do you expect a savior, a hero, some perfect deity, to float in on a cockleshell boat stage left to save the day? Politicians will bow to funders because advertising is critical to turnout and costs vast amounts of money
If more people voted without having to be cajoled or inflamed with ads, money would have less power, and you would have more say
@screwturn
Out of deference to others, I'm bowing out of this thread.
I cannot dissuade you from this magical thinking. You have the function of democracy exactly backwards, and I cannot talk you out of it.
If Dems do zero liberal things, and you vote for them anyway, they have no motive to do liberal things, because they know they can take your vote for granted.
Focus on the primaries. During the general, only vote for liberal candidates. Stop voting for conservatives.
Sorry mate, but it is you who have this backwards, and you also have the power dynamics wrong. The core of democracy isn't the behavior of politicians, but the behavior of VOTERS ie the DEMOS
The demos choose, and if the demos refuses to choose, the worst candidate usually gets in, because they will have the most money and the least scruples
leave because you're a coward called out on your weak lying bullshit and won't admit it
how did you get so fucked up?
TeflonTrout 
he/him@Tofu_Golem @benroyce @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
so, you got tired?
and you gave up? Ok, that's human
But please, stop fucking sandbagging others into giving up before they start fighting because that is exactly what you are doing
BlueDot@Tofu_Golem @benroyce @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
I don't have a problem with criticizing the Democrats who support Israeli policy. I do have a problem with suggesting that we should respond to bad Democrats by not voting.
Not voting gave us the fascist government. Indeed, any time I see someone suggest that I shouldn't vote, I automatically assume they're working on behalf of the fascists, until proven otherwise.
@BlueDot @benroyce @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
Then you had better try harder to convince Democratic politicians to do things that will make liberal voters want to vote for them.
Then you had better try harder to convince Democratic politicians to do things that will make liberal voters want to vote for them.
@Tofu_Golem @BlueDot @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
tofu:
there is a term for this "convincing democratic politicians" you refer to
it's called VOTING, political science professor
jesus fucking christ
fucking obtuse as possible
@benroyce @BlueDot @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
Yes.
I did that for DECADES, and the entire time, they went further and further to the right.
Why do you think voting this time will have a different effect from the last several decades?
@Tofu_Golem @BlueDot @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
because you were betrayed by the nonvoters
@benroyce @BlueDot @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
Again, this was not caused by nonvoters.
The conservative Democrats caused nonvoters.
You have the function of democracy exactly backwards. The further the Dems go to the right, the fewer liberal voters come out on election day.
If Democratic politicians wanted those liberal voters to come out and vote for them, they would do liberal things.
What I am saying is very basic to the function of democracy. Democratically elected officials have to do what voters want if they want to get votes.
Correct. This is why they are hiding the Presidential election post-mortem.
@Tofu_Golem @benroyce @BlueDot @screwturn @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
@Tofu_Golem @benroyce @BlueDot @screwturn @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
@Pine_Affinity @Tofu_Golem @BlueDot @screwturn @JakeKb @mcnado
netraven asked to be removed asshole. show some respect. not that you have any, self-respect or otherwise
"The conservative Democrats caused nonvoters."
No!
You have that exactly backwards - non voters caused centrist dems to have more say because they are business friendly and can bring in more campaign money. The entire reason the Citizens United works is because (especially) left-leaning voters STAY AWAY
They boycott and thus cede the playing field and then bitch that nobody services them.
🇩🇪 🇺🇦 🇨🇦
@screwturn @Tofu_Golem @benroyce @BlueDot @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado Am I the only one who thinks we are all living in an insane person's "Private Idaho"?
@Tofu_Golem @BlueDot @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @mcnado
🤣 🤣 🤣
"i will vote when magic candidate steps forth from the heavens with angels singing. this nonsense about me needing to vote to get the candidates i want is baloney"
Tag Your Toe@Tofu_Golem @benroyce @BlueDot @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado What level of pathetic embarrassing masturbatory keyboard warrioring is it when your Internet fantasy av is a thing that shoots Nazis while you won't even vote against them in real life? 🙂
SouprMatt@Tofu_Golem @benroyce @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado LOL we are literally carpet bombing Iran on behalf of Israel right now. Which would NOT be happening under Harris.
So anybody who skipped the election because they supposedly cared about stopping Israeli aggression actually HELPED THEM KILL.
If one cannot see that even today as schoolgirls are killed by Trump’s bombs, I don’t think there is any hope for them.
"The Party" has no real power and they aren't in the ballot box with you, and nor do they decide who can run.
If you decided to run for a local election, there is sweet fuckall either "party" can do about it. That is exactly why the Republican Party was so powerless against Trump - he didn't care what the party wanted or thought, he focused on what would appeal to angry voters
S Callisto Burwitz@Tofu_Golem @benroyce @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado um. You need to vote in primaries and if there is only one shitty candidate you need to BE the better candidate. My mayor got his job though barely anyone knew him because people were sick of the alternatives. Vote every single time you can and become a candidate if necessary.
@benroyce @Tofu_Golem @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
If you don’t interfere with politics, then politics will interfere with you!!
Not voting is also voting!
Paul Wermer, CC BY-NC-SA 4.0@Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
Actually, it's because too few people get engaged in the political process THROUGHOUT the year: Organizing to meet with the electeds. Don;t just complain - make specific asks/suggestions. If the electeds are not responsive, find and support people who will run for that office. It starts locally, FFS. That's what the right-wing oligarchs have been funding for decades.
AND it is a matter of talking to all - not just your comfortable circle of like minded good people. Not preaching, talking. Understanding community concerns. And linking policies to common values - not ranting about capitalism in the abstract, but drawing connections between wealth inequality and cost of housing, between oligopolies and low wages, etc.Talking about what would make peoples lives better.
The right has leveraged anger by targeting "them" - raising fears about trans people, about immigrants, "death panels" in healthcare, ... Let's talk about real problems & solutions
@PaulWermer @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
unfortunately pine affinity is going for edgelord snark and entitled indolence as their "contribution"
one hopes they grow up and figure it out
@Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado "We’ve been voting"
Fur sure, Jan. 🙄
@JakeKb @Pine_Affinity @Netraven @mcnado
a 3rd party divides the left vote and ensures MAGA domination
we need to take over the democrats. i don't like it. it's just the most feasible option
the problem with international observers like yourself is you come from a different voting system
the usa is FPTP
meaning there will only ever be 2 parties (we need RCV to fix that)
it's not corruption, it's math
educate yourself before commenting on the matter next time:
@Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
and that's on you. because you didn't show up in the primaries to vote him out
🏴☠️ regor 🐦⬛@benroyce @[email protected] @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado goddamn some holier-than-thou pricks just refuse to understand the assignment.
@roger @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
some people don't care about fixing the world or righting wrongs
their primary concern is rationalizing to themselves their entitlement to sit it out and whine
they don't want to sully their magical sense of purity. their self-regard is their highest concern, they do not care if the country is fascist. as long as they get to say "not my fault" when we're going to concentration camps. even though it is their fault, because they did not participate
@benroyce @roger @Netraven @mcnado You are definitely not fixing the world by voting for democrats. Same bombs will fall on the same people and the same elites will keep profiting. If you are willing to throw everyone outside the US under the bus just to get some sense of normality within your country, then we don't have the same goals.
@JakeKb @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado yes, an not voting is going so well? You really made the world so much safer staying home? Palestine is free? You refuse to listen to Ben's clear plan to use the existing *clearly flawed* political machinery to drag the Overton window to the left. Good lord, no one has said the democratic party is going to magically fix the world.
Sulking is just obeying in advance. You're either a troll or willfully ignorant.