McNadoMDNothing gives Israel a special right to invade neighbors, bulldoze their homes, and create a DMZ.
US voters must make anyone supporting the Israeli state unelectable until support for this bullshit stops.
Netraven@mcnado Ultimately it comes to AIPAC and shadow money which banks are happy to facilitate. Unless the banks are regulated and forced to pay for their crimes, then this will never stop. The banks can't be regulated without getting good candidates in... which can't get in because... circular logic. We're back to the billions of dollars spent bribing officials.
ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIESyeah but despite all of the shadow money we can still vote
especially in the primaries coming up
so many elections are decided by such a small percentage
and such a large percentage don't vote
yeah not all of them are leftists but if leftists did show up imagine the difference
the problem is this sort of mindless cynicism, that something is inevitable. it's not
vote, assholes
why would anyone give dark money what it wants by not voting?
Pine Affinitywhy would I vote for this party?
https://www.commondreams.org/news/schumer-israel-aid
@benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
https://www.commondreams.org/news/schumer-israel-aid
@benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
'No, That Is Not Your Job,' Say Critics After Schumer Claims 'Job' Is to 'Fight for Aid to Israel' | Common Dreams
"Seventy-five percent of Democratic voters oppose sending Israel more military aid, as do 66% of independents and 60% of Americans overall," noted one domestic policy expert.
@Pine_Affinity @Netraven @mcnado
you don't vote for them
you show up in the primaries and you replace them
the problem is this "dems suck" whine then people don't show up in the primaries out of useless pathetic indolence. so nothing changes
The Hill believes a leadership change is unlikely.
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5807683-schumer-future-senate-leadership/
@benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5807683-schumer-future-senate-leadership/
@benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
@Pine_Affinity @Netraven @mcnado
this is an inversion of responsibility
if you vote, the party answers to you
if you don't vote, the party answers to dark money and spineless centrists who do vote
if we vote, we may fail. if we don't vote, we *will* fail. so why would you want to define your political consciousness as acceptance of fascism? you understand that is what your cynical "unlikely" is about right? cynicism is acceptance. do you accept fascism? i don't think so. so vote
@Pine_Affinity @Netraven @mcnado
by voting
sitting back and passing your responsibility to dem leadership to magically change is absurdity
i am confused why you think that's a valid position
you mob the primaries, you replace them
proof it works?
mamdani
dem centrists opposed him every step of the way. and yet he won
how?
because people showed the fuck up
you have to change the way you think about the problem
don't depend upon assholes who will never change to change
vote
@Pine_Affinity @Netraven @mcnado
if no one on the left shows up, spineless corporatist dems win, because spineless corporatist dems show up to vote
but what you are saying is you want people you know are rotten to the core to suddenly and magically grow a conscience and resign?
rather than, you know, just getting off your ass and voting them out?
that's the way it works
why would you argue against the only way to remove them, and argue for a behavior which ensures their continuing power?
Because that doesn’t work.
JakeKb@Pine_Affinity @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado I really don't understand why can't Americans accept that the democratic party is an imperialist party for the elites that doesn't answer to its people. Why can't you build actual grassroot movements and put forward your own candidates that are not compromised by the democratic party systems of control? Far easier task than changing the democratic party from within.
@Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
on the contrary, it's people not voting because they are uneducated how our voting system works that makes us stuck
we can't have 3rd parties
not because of corruption, but because of math
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law
we need ranked choice voting to fix that
then we can have stable viable 3rd parties
Humphrey ArcherNo
Factually and historically false.
We got here BECAUSE "didn't vote" is the largest bloc, and instead of leaning in to bends things positive, they stood back and just let the Right snatch the victory, over, and over, and over, and over again
We got here because people who could have helped prevent Citizens United, didn't
Was Joe Biden voted into office? Did he then arm Israel to the teeth despite national and international law?
Was Biden better than the Orange guy?
Was Kamal better than the Orange guy?
We got the worst option because people who should have voted for her, just never showed up
Biden was outmaneuvered on Palestine by the worst man on the planet.
@screwturn @JakeKb @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
@screwturn @JakeKb @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
@Pine_Affinity
Hey, can you please indicate who you are responding to?
It would make things a lot easier to follow if you had the name of the person you are responding to first, then your response, then the cc's
Dopes The Frogman@Pine_Affinity @screwturn @JakeKb @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado seriously, this orange turd was literally Pandora box and he was opened not once, but twice, and now we're seeing the fallout
Kierkethumbs up convincingly@benroyce @screwturn @Netraven @JakeKb @mcnado @Pine_Affinity a garden gnome shaped doorstop would have been better at the job
A magical garden gnome wasn't on the ballot. The ballot doesn't have a Refusenik "neither" option.
Millions of people who would have voted left, didn't vote, and now we have this - which is a whole bunch worse than if Kamala had come in.
@mcnado @Pine_Affinity @screwturn @benroyce @Netraven @JakeKb plain stupidity and moral cowardice as the choice was perfectly clear after both his campaigning and his first try that got a million citizens killed
A_Minion@screwturn @Kierkegaanks @benroyce @Netraven @JakeKb @mcnado @Pine_Affinity
Where is the "none of the above" button. '. . .
Yup there is none.
Just like there is no "cast them all into a volcano" option
Would that there was, but there isn't
What you get is the optician's exam - Is 1 better, or 2. 1 or 2. If you stand away and don't choose, you get shitty spectacles, not the magical ones you imagine, not do your eyes suddenly improve on their own.
@Kierkegaanks @benroyce @Netraven @JakeKb @mcnado @Pine_Affinity
draNgNon@screwturn if only there were, actually, a "cast them all into a volcano" option
then only the most confident and thoughtful persons would run.
however, I know Nevada has a NOTA option on their ballots. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/None_of_These_Candidates
@A_Minion @Kierkegaanks @benroyce @Netraven @JakeKb @mcnado @Pine_Affinity
@draNgNon @screwturn @Kierkegaanks @benroyce @Netraven @JakeKb @mcnado @Pine_Affinity
Thanks, It never occurred to me to look it up. I guess it's just too obvious and thought folks would have said something if it existed, well, either that or boy am I dense. I'll go the the former to salve my wounded ego. . . 8*) The Volcano option is sure enticing tho as a permanent solution.
Peace
@A_Minion lol I only looked it up becuase I remember them doing it and hoping it would catch on. nearness matters, I'm in Cali and have friends living in Nevada 😄
imagine how different things would be if NOTA + Ranked Choice was the law of the land
@screwturn @Kierkegaanks @benroyce @Netraven @JakeKb @mcnado @Pine_Affinity
@draNgNon @A_Minion @screwturn @Kierkegaanks @Netraven @JakeKb @mcnado @Pine_Affinity
which we get by supporting dem candidates who say so
not because dems are perfect, but because you have dems against RCV and dems for it, and we have to make that choice
meawhile the GOP in 2024 took a blanket stand against RCV
haui ☭
🇵🇸I agree with you that there is a qualitative difference between them and that not voting at all or even voting for trump is beyond stupid.
Still, blaming the current situation solely on them is ignoring reality. Every US president has killed many thousands of people, many of them noncombatants.
The USA is an imperialist state which is controlled by capitalists. They are the driving force behind this.
It is like pumping the brakes one meter before the cliff. People need to organize
CynBlogger ❌👑@screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
Thus following the great American low-voter-turnout tradition, which hasn’t seen voter participation great than 63% in over 100 years; midterms average around 40%.
Threadbane@cynblogger @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
And be sure to A. Register as a Republican B. Vote a straight Democratic ticket (or for the independent where Right Wing poseurs are running as Democrats, like in Nebraska). Registering Republican will increase the chances that your votes will not be thrown out or that your registration will not simple vanish.
And be sure to A. Register as a Republican B. Vote a straight Democratic ticket (or for the independent where Right Wing poseurs are running as Democrats, like in Nebraska). Registering Republican will increase the chances that your votes will not be thrown out or that your registration will not simple vanish.
Grumble 🇺🇸 🇺🇦 🇬🇱@screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado Please don't blame the voters for not voting for a second-pick candidate that was selected for us without any primaries.
We got the worst option because the DNC is much more focused on satisfying their donors than their voters. In a functioning democracy, the DNC would have died after the fiasco of 2024.
Nobody owes the DNC a vote. The DNC, of course, disagrees. Which is why they can fuck right off, imho.
@grumble209 @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @mcnado
"the voters for not voting"
well there's your problem. somewhat of a contradiction in terms no?
@benroyce @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado Like a "Democratic party" that picks candidates for people to vote for?
It's idiocracy all the way down, my friend.
@grumble209 @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @mcnado
yes, i like how the dnc picked mamdani. oh no wait they picked someone else. ah well, the voters couldn't vote because the dnc is a vast omnipotent force. it would have been nice to have mamdani, but as we know, once the dnc picks someone, the voter is absolutely powerless to do anything about it
CartyBoston@benroyce @grumble209 @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
I hope this is responsive, I always thought the left gave the DNC too much credit. A typical Dem voter - maybe working class and football watching - literally does not know what the DNC is.
@grumble209
My Dude, please
The DNC doesn't manufacture candidates like some kind of monopoly.
Nothing stops YOU from standing as a candidate.
The DNC can't stop you.
When you vote, the DNC isn't there in the booth to make sure you vote for the right candidate. You are on your own, and YOU and ONLY you make the choice.
There is nobody else to blame, but the voter.
The voter, and ONLY the voter is who shows up or doesn't, votes or doesn't, or picks a fascist or doesn't
Until we actually have a fully fascist dictatorship where a jackboot actually does come in with you and check that you vote Right, whether and how you vote is entirely and only up to you.
Toast, Anonymous Fedi Fungus@JakeKb @grumble209 @Pine_Affinity @Netraven @benroyce @screwturn @mcnado the DNC doesn’t decide who gets to run in a primary. You get enough signatures from regular voters, you get on the ballot. It’s not even a lot of signatures. Stop acting like the DNC is some kind of conspiracy.
Tofu Golem@screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @benroyce @Netraven @mcnado
Sorry, but I lay this at the feet of Democratic politicians. They decided that they wanted votes from conservative voters and did not want votes from liberal voters.
The conservative voters did not vote for them because they have been brainwashed to believe that all Dems are demons.
The liberal voters didn't vote because they knew Dem politicians would do what conservative voters want, but not what they wanted.
If the Dems wanted votes from liberal voters, they would have done liberal things.
@Tofu_Golem @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
nope
if you show up, especially in the primaries, you get the candidates you want
if you don't, you don't
bad candidates do not cause lack of voting
lack of voting causes bad candidates
you have the cause and effect reversed and are abrogating a simple effort to make your will known. and for what? ego masturbation over toxic idealism?
not voting is monumentally stupid, and is the cause of our problems as much as MAGA
@benroyce @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
Ah yes.
That bit of magical thinking.
We've been over this before.
If both parties only want votes from conservative voters, and neither party wants votes from liberal voters, there isn't a damn thing liberal voters can do.
Voting for conservative candidates will not cause them to suddenly behave like liberals. That is not how democracy works.
If Dem politicians wanted votes from liberal voters, they would do liberal things.
They do not, and you cannot blame the voters.
Blame the corrupt campaign finance system that causes both parties to pursue the same set of voters.
@Tofu_Golem @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
"If both parties only want"
what is this bullshit?
who fucking gives a shit what they want. it's a red herring
did you forget the lesson of mamdani?
centrists opposed him in the primaries
people showed up and voted for him
centrists opposed him in the general
people showed up and voted for him
you just fucking vote
"but centrists-"
who fucking gives a shit
all you're saying is you have an unhealthy, pointless obsession
@benroyce @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
Yes. We can get a few through from time to time, and that's great.
The primaries are a good time to try and make a difference. I'll agree with you there.
But showing up for the general when there are no good candidates in most elections?
That's a loser's game.
The establishment Dems have made it clear that they don't want our votes, so they shouldn't complain when we stay home on election day in the general election.
They knew damn well that their position on Israel cost them the 2024 election, AND THEY ARE STILL SUPPORTING ISRAEL. They know damn well that their support of Israel will cost them even more in future elections, and they will not stop doing it, and every time you blame the voters for that, you are providing cover for them.
My Dude
Variance is the key to ALL process improvement
Both parties supported atrocious behavior in the Middle East, but they varied in the kind and the degree. One is a better option than the other - as we have very clearly seen in the last year
So you pick the better of the two, and keep iterating.
@Tofu_Golem @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
"But showing up for the general when there are no good candidates in most elections?"
are you honestly saying that, for example, you see no substantive meaningful difference between harris and trump?
is this a statement of profound ignorance or dishonesty?
do you think it doesn't matter?
you're just an edgelord?
what?
@benroyce @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
Harris does not want my vote.
If she wanted my vote, at the bare minimum, she would stop supporting Israel and would try to do more liberal things.
Even knowing that her support of Israel cost her the election, she has not indicated a willingness to change positions.
If Democratic politicians wanted votes from liberal voters, they would do liberal things. They do not want votes from liberal voters.
I did the "just vote harder" thing for decades, and the entire time, the Democratic Party slipped further and further to the right.
I must admit that I find this perspective both very annoying and circular.
Why do you expect a savior, a hero, some perfect deity, to float in on a cockleshell boat stage left to save the day? Politicians will bow to funders because advertising is critical to turnout and costs vast amounts of money
If more people voted without having to be cajoled or inflamed with ads, money would have less power, and you would have more say
@screwturn
Out of deference to others, I'm bowing out of this thread.
I cannot dissuade you from this magical thinking. You have the function of democracy exactly backwards, and I cannot talk you out of it.
If Dems do zero liberal things, and you vote for them anyway, they have no motive to do liberal things, because they know they can take your vote for granted.
Focus on the primaries. During the general, only vote for liberal candidates. Stop voting for conservatives.
Sorry mate, but it is you who have this backwards, and you also have the power dynamics wrong. The core of democracy isn't the behavior of politicians, but the behavior of VOTERS ie the DEMOS
The demos choose, and if the demos refuses to choose, the worst candidate usually gets in, because they will have the most money and the least scruples
leave because you're a coward called out on your weak lying bullshit and won't admit it
how did you get so fucked up?
TeflonTrout 
he/him@Tofu_Golem @benroyce @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
so, you got tired?
and you gave up? Ok, that's human
But please, stop fucking sandbagging others into giving up before they start fighting because that is exactly what you are doing
BlueDot@Tofu_Golem @benroyce @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
I don't have a problem with criticizing the Democrats who support Israeli policy. I do have a problem with suggesting that we should respond to bad Democrats by not voting.
Not voting gave us the fascist government. Indeed, any time I see someone suggest that I shouldn't vote, I automatically assume they're working on behalf of the fascists, until proven otherwise.
@BlueDot @benroyce @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
Then you had better try harder to convince Democratic politicians to do things that will make liberal voters want to vote for them.
Then you had better try harder to convince Democratic politicians to do things that will make liberal voters want to vote for them.
@Tofu_Golem @BlueDot @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
tofu:
there is a term for this "convincing democratic politicians" you refer to
it's called VOTING, political science professor
jesus fucking christ
fucking obtuse as possible
@benroyce @BlueDot @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
Yes.
I did that for DECADES, and the entire time, they went further and further to the right.
Why do you think voting this time will have a different effect from the last several decades?
@Tofu_Golem @BlueDot @screwturn @Pine_Affinity @JakeKb @Netraven @mcnado
because you were betrayed by the nonvoters
@Tofu_Golem @[email protected] @BlueDot @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @mcnado
FW:FW:FW:FW:
Can I be excused from this thread?