Mastodawn

A rant about electric bicycles:

* For e-bikes to be viable car replacements they need cargo-carrying and hill-climb capacity. The practicality test for an e-bike is to carry four bags of grocieries, or a child.

* The 250W and 20km/h limit for unlicensed bicycles is *far* too low. Human cyclists comfortably exceed this in both power and speed leading to e-bikes holding up traffic. When. I ride the bikeways, human-powered traffic cruises at around 35 km/h.

* The "you must pedal or the motor stops" requirement is some Calvinist bullshit.

* The perl-clutching "but the children" scare in the news about "unlicensed motorbikes" HAS to be some kind of car-industry astroturfing. From what I can see on the bikeways, commuter e-bikes and scooters are HOT items and anyone with a head can see a dent in vehicle sales coming. Users LOVE this emerging mobility sector.

* I work in an industrial area with zero public transport service. I observe large numbers of workers riding scooters in the direction of the nearest train station.

* If governments *really* want to stick to the 250w 25km/h bullshit for "bicycles" then we need URGENT legislation to create a vehicle class for say 1000W 45km/h vehicles. The Australia post electric delivery tricycles are a worked example of the practicality of this class; I don't hear *anyone* having a meltdown about "dangerous monster tricycles on our footpaths".

#MicroMobility #ebikes #solarpunk

ETA: absurd panic-fueled legislation from the fossil-fuel captured Literal Nazi Party: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-03-24/queensland-ebike-escooter-ban-children-licence-reforms/106487910

E-bike and e-scooter riders to require a licence in Qld under proposed laws

A raft of new rules around the use of e-mobility devices will be ushered in after the Queensland government accepted the recommendations from a parliamentary inquiry.

Kit Bashir 5h ago

I have no problem with increased power requiring licensing and some form of registration, but right now in this state the legal status is “bicycles under 250w no licensing” “bicycles over 250w are flat out illegal on the road for *everyone*”, “electric motorcycles $600+ per year rego”. There is no legal moped or micro-electric class. We don’t ban F250 trucks because nine year olds might hurt themselves driving them.

Kit Bashir 4h ago

LOL I’m leaving typo “Perl-clutching” in the OP.

Deborah Pickett 4h ago

@Unixbigot Won't somebody think of the child processes!

Polly Kraisus 8h ago

@Unixbigot is the law already voted in? Can you link to some good write-ups about it?
We ride two ebikes in Meanjin, one cargo, the other single, both shop-bought as is, both pedal-assist to 27 K/h. Does that mean we'll have to get some kind of licence for them??

Kit Bashir 8h ago

@stragu I've added a link to the latest news to the original post

Kit Bashir 8h ago

@stragu the current plan seems to be that you would have three years grace period to scrap them. I am SO mad.

Polly Kraisus 1h ago

@Unixbigot WTF?? Actually scrap a legit cargo that cost us thousands, has a Bosch drive and was sold by the biggest bike retailer in Australia ???

Kit Bashir 1h ago

@stragu yeah. I hate Inghamois Nazis.

Suzannah 8h ago

@stragu @Unixbigot I was directed to this site as one of the campaigns going.
https://space4cyclingbne.com/

Writing to state MP is one of the actions they recommend.

I almost ran over some kid riding their illegal ebike on the road yesterday, but kids being dumb isn't a reason to ruin it for everyone else.

Space for Cycling Brisbane

Making a better Brisbane for everyone

Space for Cycling Brisbane

Its not so much the power of the bikes (which is aproblem in the worng situations), its more the underage, unlicenced and stupid behaviour by both kids, and some adults. Kids are usually the worst because they have no experience and think they're invincible. There needs to be more policing ansd consequence for illegal bikes, and behaviour, including underage kids riding essentially electric motorcycles.

Franchesca 26m ago

@PeteDiscrete fatbikes going too fast is a problem here in The Netherlands, especially 12yo kids who think they are invincible riding double. One kid ended up in a coma with his lower jaw gone last year as he hit the back of a truck(kid behind walked away). They need to class these things in terms of momentum, with age limits relative to how much damage your momentum can do to yourself and other cyclists (we have separation from cars usually, or cars are “guests” for access only)

@Unixbigot Part of the problem is that transport policy assumes that users are reasonable. A large number of car drivers are fucktards. Quite a few of the (especially younger) bike/e-bike riders are fucktards in our area. Both neither give a thought to their safety or that of others.

Therefore, the only solution is a transport system that keeps people on the right track: Trains (and trams).

#GunzelAdjacent

@Unixbigot Monorails are also an option.

@allrite @Unixbigot

And cablecars ?

@allrite @Unixbigot

Submarines!!

neoluddite 4h ago

@allrite "fucktards"? Hmm.

MrAndrewD 8h ago

@Unixbigot Whilst I agree with your points, let's not exaggerate about speeds. I ride a decent high end carbon bike relatively well.

On windless flat rides low 30km/h is where you sit, not 35kmh.

bananamangodog 8h ago

@Unixbigot Yes, 100% agree and thank you for posting the post I had wanted to but didn't have the mental energy to do.

Also as someone who is disabled, I could sometimes ride an e-bike but I also live at the bottom of a hill and all the services are at the top of the hill. E-bike laws in this state mean I cannot legally use one to my best ability.

@Unixbigot An Germany we already have classes between unlicensed peddle assist bikes and full car/motorbikes with "Mofa" (literally short for motorized bycicle until 25km/h with a short easy courso and test) and "Mopeds" (bikes until 45km/h). Might be worth looking at for legislation.

Granted the speed limitations of mofas make them kinda pointless, and people are know to both tune mofas as well as peddle assist bikes to drive faster. (Especially on bycicles it's hard to see if someone is actually driving by peddling or by their assist motor and I'le never heard of any police controcs regarding that where I live...)

Kit Bashir 7h ago

@the_moep Mopeds are explicitly illegal here. It's unclear what kinds of light lightweight electric vehicles could be registered as an ordinary motorcycle (which costs over $600 per year.)

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/noncompliant

Vehicles and devices you cannot use on the road

Find out what vehicles and devices cannot be used on Queensland roads.

Ewen McNeill 6h ago

@Unixbigot that was going to be my question too: here (Aotearoa) what you’re describing would be a moped, which is legal to ride with any driver’s license (car, motorbike, etc).

Explicitly banning mopeds (ie limited engine size — 50cc here and IIRC similar equivalent other power) *and* capping e-bikes quite low, does seem to leave the gap you describe, waiting to be filled.

(35km/h rather than 25km/h also seems a better speed limit, as 35km/h is quite achievable by any fit bicyclist.)

CMDR Yojimbosan 🅅⁂5h ago

@ewenmcneill @Unixbigot Legislation shouldn't concern itself with engine sizes (except for petrol/diesel engines, where this correlates to dangerous emissions), and should instead restrict itself to safety, i.e. limit momentum (the combination of speed and weight) and braking distances.

Ewen McNeill 5h ago

@yojimbo I do agree they engine size has historically been used as a proxy for other (more safety related) things, and that could be done better.

Total momentum (ie laden mass x maximum speed) is an interesting criteria to consider. Arguably that would mean, eg, scooters should be reclassified (at least if ridden by sizeable adults) 🤔

(Personally I wouldn’t special case best case breaking distance, as it assumes prompt reactions and used efficiently.)

@ewenmcneill @yojimbo @Unixbigot you’d have have to use the standard 0.1 second following distance that NZ drivers seem to use 😅

Kit Bashir 5h ago

@ewenmcneill If bikes had license plates the motto would say “QUEENSLAND - THE REGULATIVE CAPTURE STATE”. I bet the insurance lobby has a finger in this panic.

@Unixbigot @ewenmcneill also because it's QLD, add a dose of "screw you kids"

@Unixbigot some context about the AusPost EDVs: while on footpaths they are required to use "turtle mode" which restricts them to 10kmph. They are also equipped with very jumpy telematic instruments which send alerts back to the Postie's manager whenever there's any sudden braking/acceleration/swerving/vehicle angle. AusPost has strict targets for "reported incidents per EDV per day". The postie is questioned over every reported telematic incident. None of the above things will be true for the average person riding an electrified vehicle.

Kit Bashir 6h ago

@shvere thanks for adding some detail!

@shvere @Unixbigot Also, aren't the Auspost e-trikes classed as motorcycles, requiring the riders to have that class of licence?

@AvonVilla @Unixbigot yes, in most states/territories you must have a motorbike license.

@Unixbigot I use an e-bike in Ireland. It's limited to 250W/25km/h. For me, it's quite OK despite living in a fairly hilly area. Having the option of a few mechanical gears helps, too, I suppose. That said, we can also use higher-powered e-bikes but a basic motorbike-style licence (including the need to wear a helmet, iirc) is required.

(Two-wheeled) horses for courses, I suppose.

Here in Ireland, the pearl-clutching is mostly to do with e-scooters and scrambler bikes. It's still pretty hostile to non-car modes of transport but at least from my POV, the e-bike regs seem OK.

Iron Helmet Games 5h ago

@Unixbigot Hey Kit, I ride a 250W bike 10 km every day to work.. Just wanted to share my view.

I very rarely see a traditional cycles going faster than my 25km per hour. I overtake every non e bike I see. 4 bags of groceries would not impact the ride at all.

I would love to see 1000w motorbikes, but at 45km/h I really think you need be on the road only, not bike paths, and you should have a motorbike license and training.

Kit Bashir 5h ago

@IHG id be fine with licensing for bigger bikes. right now anything bigger is flat out illegal, here. When i commuted along the riverside bikeway on my 25kh/h cruiser, 15+ years ago, coming back from a badly broken leg, acoustic bikers passed me like i was stopped. I stopped using it and went acoustic as soon as my post-injury fitness allowed me.

Kit Bashir 3h ago

@IHG I’m a big chonker which is why I’m trying to bike as much as possible! I need to lose about six more bags of groceries, lost four already.

@Unixbigot @IHG I understand some of your points, but not all.
Especially if you say you use it for weight loss, why are you objecting to having to pedal?

Is the legislation capping at 250W peak or the more diffuse 250W permanent thing like eg in Europe? All bike systems can do way more, some are even up to 1000W.

And this is where I subject: I see people on the regular not being able to handle even 250W (mostly old and/or out of shape). Handing them more would dramatically increase risks.

@Unixbigot @IHG risks for them (crashing) and others (not being able to stop in time, the driver generally being overwhelmed and doing stupid stuff etc.)

I would maybe be okay with raising the speed limit to about 30, but not more for the same reason. I live in a quite hilly area, there's a lot of crashes with ebikes since people cannot handle speed. They are just plain inexperienced bike riders but if they can go fast they will.

The E-Bike is great for getting people to bike that otherwise..

@Unixbigot @IHG would not be capable and I love it for that. But as you say "reasonable fit bikers can do 35kph easily". Yes, and they mostly got reasonable fit by riding a lot on their bike gaining experience.

There may be some riders that are experienced but can only ride their bike due to conditions. But from a legislation perspective you have to consider there will be a lot of inexperienced riders wanting to go fast. And therefore make it as safe as possible for everyone.

Kit Bashir 2h ago

@mr_harm @IHG There are some steep hills on my ride, even with the motor and me going flat stick we barely make it up them. I could use a rest after that hill! Here they are threatening to confiscate bikes that are able to deliver over 250W at any time. We will get more people out of cars if they can ride in their ordinary clothes and not arrive at their destination all sweaty. They can have a workout on the way home. It shouldn't be a moral crisis how much effort it takes to be car-free.

@Unixbigot @IHG okay yeah 250Wp is pretty low.

I'd say 500 would be pretty good for most situations but 250 is definitely just light assist. I think the boom in Europe is mostly due to the very lenient approach by legislation

Noam writes 3h ago

Mixed feelings. In the UK, there's already a problem of e-bikes powered up beyond the legal limit, and no easy way to stop them. While slowing development of myriad electric bicycles and other e-vehicles is harsh, we need some licencing mechanism and regulations for safety. Having different classes, with more powerful ones requiring a motorcycle licence and banned from pavements and cycle lanes seems wise.
Also, a shout out to advanced mobility scooters, which can replace cars for those less able to cycle, and easily capable of carrying your shopping. (Not sure what you call these in other countries).

@Unixbigot I think the 25km/h assist limit is important. The issue is that what ever the maximum speed available is then that is what the average speed will be. On a push bike it's possible to get up to 30km/h on the flat but you'll get very sweaty and waste a lot of physical effort if you need to slow down all the time
This means that average cycling speed is more like 15-20km/h which is a good speed for safe interactions with pedestrians and other bicycle riders of all ages without the need for traffic management.

E-bicycles are great, but having a lot of people riding 45km/h e-motorbikes on shared paths and places where children ride to school isn't great.

I want a bicycle city not a motorbike city.

@Unixbigot big bicycles cities are having huge problems with overpowered e-bikes. Amsterdam is crushing thousands of illegaly e-bikes every month. It's not just the car lobby complaining, it's people that don't want increased danger in hard won bicycle infrastructure scaring people away from riding again.

David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)1h ago

@jessta @Unixbigot

Same with small cities. In Cambridge, a lot of food delivery companies provide subsidised e-bikes to riders. These things are heavy and big and are easy to mod to remove the speed restrictions. They’re also incentivising people to take the quickest possible path, which often involves going on the pavement. It’s illegal to ride a bike of any kind on the pavement here, but no one really minds if it’s a normal-weight bicycle cycled at a normal city-cycling speed by someone paying attention to their surroundings. When it’s a high-speed thing that looks like a motorbike and weights as much as a small motorbike, it’s not fun to have to share the pavement with them.

Ylönën 2h ago

@jessta @Unixbigot As far as I know the 25 km/h limit is of European origin and sort of based on research. I can easily exceed that with my road bike on muscle power but if I want to ride a "normal" bike I'd say that on flat on my own the average speed is less than the 25 km/h, closer to 17-20 km/h. The only problem with that 25 km/h assist limit is that it often seems to make people ride against that upper limit, approaching crossings too fast and cutting corners so to speak.

Ylönën 2h ago

@jessta @Unixbigot Most of the time it's not really a big problem. The 45 km/h limited ones need to be insured as mopeds and that also limits where you are allowed to drive them. I have so far seen only a couple of them on non-permitted lanes. Greetings from within the EU, Finland.

"Musty Bits" McGee 1h ago

@jessta @Unixbigot im with you on 25, maybe 30 max. my take is that to cycle unassisted at that speed you usually have to have yknow, cycled a bit - which means you learn the handling and safety. people without that blasting around is worrying for me, i dont want to get collected by someone (and with a substantially heavier bike!)

"Musty Bits" McGee 1h ago

@jessta @Unixbigot PS: in Asia the petrol mopeds just go wherever the fuck including cycle paths and it's ...not great.

@jessta @Unixbigot agree completely - our street legal, 250w 36V cargo bike can do a full shop of groceries with a kid no problem. It gets up to 25km/h in about the same time I do riding a regular bike. Nobody I've ever let ride it thinks it's underpowered even on hills.

Most of the time if you're in Australia you're riding on infrastructure shared with pedestrians. 25km/h is plenty. Arguing for faster ebikes will end up getting them all banned.

If you want to go faster then get a 50cc scooter or motorbike, register, insure and ride on the road where they belong

Kit Bashir 44m ago

@Marner @jessta it’s impolite to ask what you weigh but i bet it’s a fair bit less than me.

Kit Bashir 43m ago

@Marner @jessta Nice bike!

Lindsay Holmwood 2h ago

@Unixbigot Agree with most of what you've said.

On the "but the children" and 20km/h limit points:

My brother in law is a speech pathologist at a public rehab hospital, and 25% of their beds are consistently filled by e-bike riders.

2 years ago, it was 0%.

We don't have enough data on if accident rates have actually increased, or we just have more riders. Also pretty reasonable hypothesis: more bike riders mean we're seeing a clearer picture of how unsafe our road infrastructure actually is for cyclists. Either way, speed-at-time-of-accident is definitely a big factor in recovery outcomes.

Speed limiting will reduce severity of accidents, but it's just treating a symptom.

No politician wants to stick their neck out to spend money on cyclists, so limiting speeds is a great way to turn a systemic problem into a "personal responsibility" problem.

@auxesis the infrastructure is a huge factor in all of this. How did these people come to grief? I'm pretty certain they weren't riding a nice separated cycleway. Its a system problem and the only way you're going to 'fix' it by changing vehicle rules is by making them unpractical.
Speaking as someone who's been a very serious petrol head, motorcyclist and Engineer working with risk quantification.
@Unixbigot

Noam writes 1h ago

@auxesis @Unixbigot The traditional wisdom is that cities with a higher percentage of people cycling are actually safer for cycling - and this is backed by data. E-bicycles might change things because cyclists no longer stay in their lane, so to speak.

@Unixbigot When I got my motorbike licence the trainer gave us a good historical spiel about changes to laws over the decades. It was strongly evidence-based, he quoted stats about the fatalities for different age/gender categories before and after rider training and related requirements were introduced.

I think the same principles apply for e-bikes, we need better quality data.

In Europe and elsewhere there's also the whole quadricycle category, of low powered cars which have less stringent rules on crash impact tests etc.. Boofy revheads in Australia wouldn't want to be stuck behind one of them, especially the light ones limited to 45 km/h.

benschwarz 2h ago

@Unixbigot agree with most points, but I’d also like to see people chilling out on their family e-bikes. Some people ride like they drive an SUV 😵‍💫

I’d also like to see better social contracts for how bikes act around people/children, dogs, etc.

tldr, everyone needs to take it down a notch.

Ben Askins 56m ago

@benschwarz someone rode straight at me, directly at my face while crossing the road today, and looked surprised to find me there.

CyclesBecauseSummerIsComing😀1h ago

@Unixbigot input from thé biking country: unassisted 🚲 go around 15-23 kn/h on a flat surface, if ridden by average ppl, incl those encumbered with age, children or groceries. 250W helps ppl get on a 🚲, assists with a hill or with encumbrances. Speed will increase a little but manageable for all parties.
1000W might be fine with steep hills (unknown here), but comes with a steep rise in incidents if all ages can get them; that evidence has been mounting here the last 2 years. Cannot recommend.

CyclesBecauseSummerIsComing😀1h ago

@Unixbigot 35 is not a normal speed if you ride with groceries or a child. We see 15-20 here in those circumstances. 35 is only cruising speed for fit young riders on a racing bike on a free road/ bike path.