How (racist/sexist/whatever) harassment on Mastodon works:
1. Harasser replies to their target's post, with the reply set to "followers only", saying the most vile stuff you can imagine.
2. All the harasser's followers join in on the harassment, posting more vile stuff.
3. Nobody but the target and the harassment crew can see the vile stuff that was said.
4. Target is traumatized. Nobody else can see why.
5. Everybody says "I don't see it so it's not happening."
"But Dave, why don't they moderate?"
They do. The harassers spin up new instances to get around block lists.
"But Dave, why don't they show the receipts?"
The brave ones do, when they have the energy. It invites a huge amount more harassment, so showing receipts *always* causes psychological damage.
Some folks are willing to tank that damage to get the word out. Most people understandably just want it to stop.
Addendum to this (thanks @flippac !): the receipts a victim of harassment could show won't help stop anything, it's all sock puppet accounts. The most information they can share is "see look, this *happens*. It happened to *me*."
Which, let's be honest, isn't that useful in the white supremacist patriarchal world we live in. A few new people will learn to believe the victims of harassment. That's not much return on investment when the cost is needing more therapy.
Last post I'm going to make in this thread. If you want more visibility into this underside of the Fediverse, follow the #fediblock hashtag (and send some mental thanks and good vibes to MarciaX while you're at it, you're benefiting from the work of a Black woman).
If you want to do something about this, I know of two things anyone can do:
1. Open or comment on issues at https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues
2. Share this info. Steal my posts in good health, or write this issue up in your own words.
The harrassers didn't know, that I have a loose block-Finger. I blocked already some of them.
And des, I already know the Hashtags #fediblock for getting Info on Accounts to block. Also my admins are eager to block any of such bullshit for the whole instance.
Would this change (in the code/design) be helpful, do you think: for posts that are in reply to something, give the original poster the ability to {reveal publicly, if non-public} and/or {completely delete, for everyone} those replies.
Maybe someone has come up with a better idea, but that's what comes quickly to my mind.
@dave @woozle @flippac already suggested in 2023, but shot down by people who are not being harassed. 😑
Pitch FollowersOnly toots should NOT be visible to any non-follower mentioned in the toot, even if their handle is explicitly mentioned in the toot. Scenario : @[email protected] toots followers-on...
I'm not sure that's the best solution either -- though I see no reason why it couldn't be a per-post or per-user option.
I'm sure that'd get shot down, too; there's been a lot of "not invented here" syndrome at Masto Central. Maybe now that it's under new(ish) leadership, they'll reconsider some of these decisions?
Failing that: one of these days, I will dig into the code...
@dave receipts about sockpuppets are less useful like that, yeah
(which: this is what the victim has because this is how they did it)
@dave i think if you're going to show receipts, then you should post them followers only. seems only right.
i wish more people would do this, but at the same time, i would never *ask* someone to do that; it's not fair on them.
But it does have a purpose. as you are pointing out, lots of folks don't know this is happening.
I'm confused, what invites aggression in reporting a jackass?
@kevinrns white men who harass DO NOT appreciate being called out. They double down to exert control or cause harm if someone dares to point out what they're doing.
All groups do it, but it's absolutely a patriarchal white supremacy thing. It's similar to how white men believe they belong in all spaces and will throw a fit if they are excluded.
No, using reporting. To mods. Its not public. I dont understand.
@kevinrns ah. Reporting to mods is not what I'm describing in that second example. I'm talking about posting screenshots to prove to people that harassment is happening.
Reporting to mods doesn't stop harassment because most harassment is from sock puppet accounts.
@dave But Dave, we do moderate the shit out of these people, their later sockpuppet accounts, and we defed from the instances where they can create new accounts algorithmically (i.e. faster than we can ban them).
Certain cases have even been reported to law enforcement.
There is no escape from the banhammer if the moderator crew is motivated enough.
Keep those reports coming.
@szakib @dave
@semitones
> anonymously shame the harassers
You can't shame teh bots, then if you do bot operators group-masturbate to such post on Xshit or Turdgram.
Though LEA-bat factor could possibly be achieved in semi-automated way:
1. Preferences -> Sensitive Content -> [ x] Allow grep reporting
[x] Allow grep reporting on PM
If you set this feature on, your feed will be a subject to automatic assesment (threats detection). If the cached content will be flagged, yours and the other instance admin (or designed moderators) will get noticed.
Next could be:
2. Preferences -> Advanced Settings -> [ x] mute mutes all followers of the muted
Self explanatory.
That said, never ever get excited by the slur aka "don't feed the troll". Mute, move on.
(If you live in some of a few free countries and) there are *real* threats in your feed, do not reply to the harraser, get your mute face to the nearby Police station and formally report. Policemen do not like stats going south so eventually they'll react.
Hope this helps.
@chocobo13 You can explain it to those who still thinks it's not happening.
Harassers also sometimes target hashtags or groups, so you could watch those (e.g. #MutualAid or #BlackMastodon and definitely #FediBlock) and help by reporting anything you might see there.
Also, read https://infosec.exchange/@thenexusofprivacy/112956213079993182
5 things white people can do to start making the fediverse less toxic for Black people https://privacy.thenexus.today/start-making-the-fediverse-less-toxic/ 1. Listen more to more Black people – and amplify their voices 2. Think before you post 3. Call in, call out, and/or report anti-Blackness when you see it 4. Support Black people and Black-led instances and projects 5. Approach it intersectionally The article also has links to anti-racism resources and appendices with a list of common mistkes to avoid and blocklist resources for moderators. Thanks to everybody who gave feedback on earlier drafts! EDIT, 8/19: I updated #2 (which previously started with "Post Less"), and also made some other changes in the underlying article - including a bit more discussion about how anti-Blackness isn't just a US problem. Read on for some excerpts (1/N) #fediverse #mastodon #antiracism
I AM a white person on the Fediverse and I myself was offended from time to time by one ore another idiot (blocked them, of course), but I've INDEED never seen someone called a slur, or threats made against them - or myself.
So thank you so much for explaining those harrassment issues occuring on the Fediverse! What a pity!
@MxAlba @dave No, it doesn't work like that.
If their instance was breaking the reply restrictions rule, your instance would detect that when they try to federate the reply to your instance, and would reject it. Then you would not see it, and it also would not get federated to anyone who opens your post looking for the replies.
Your instance could also use detection of this behavior to automatically place the offending instance on limited federation and add it to a review queue of abusive instances that are candidates for defederation.
@[email protected] bonus points when [the victim is blocked and not able to report report said harrassment](https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/23249#issuecomment-1629662706)… - They can even [prevent admins from seeing the posts in question](https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/33530) - This is a serious issue that #Mastodin developers *refuse to address*, alongside the *unwillingness to address basic features* that *every other internet-facing application has*, like [blocklist feed support](https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/28605)…
@dalias @MxAlba yes, this. "Public post but only <my followers and/or people I follow> can reply" would be a huge step in the right direction. It would let you say something to the world without letting the world talk back, but you still get feedback from your friends.
"I want to get this off my chest but I don't want to hear your opinion about it" is not possible in Mastodon today.
@dave @dalias @MxAlba in my experience this might also only kinda work, but probs better than nothing.
Had somebody harassing me below my replies, but _I_ haven't seen it, because I've blocked them way before already, but that did mean some of my followers were seeing it and started to engage with that harasser, because some instances will just find ways to also get around that.
And then I saw the replies to the reply and was obviously curious what this was all about...
In order to keep their abuse secret, these harassing accounts would have to use "Request to follow", because otherwise their abuse could be easily exposed by those following them.
I have avoided following anyone with this setting, not wanting to be in a group where others are not welcome. I know this is a weak reason, but now I have a stronger one.
That sounds sensible.
Oh, I haven’t seen that setting! I like it!
@dave
This is why hiding content (either from blocks, lists, etc) has so many trolling edge cases.
...Which leads me to wonder: What is the reply's visibility being able to be set that supposed to do? What is the intended use case? Why can a replier or quoter be allowed to isolate someone like that? Is it hidden from moderators?
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