Mastodawn

deliverator 4d ago

Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸

This is an excellent a-political explainer about why the actual act of Alberta, or any province, "separating" from Canada is a very difficult, maybe impossible, prospect.

It's worth the time (14 minutes) Including if you're not Canadian and want a relatively quick summary of some of the very Canadian history and processes.
#Canada #Separatism #Alberta #USA #CanPoli #CdnPoli #TheAmericanFascist #USA #CBC

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.7136155

Why Alberta’s separation from Canada is almost impossible | About That

Alberta's separatist sentiment has resurged in recent months amid the Trump administration's comments about the province's future, coupled with economic and political tensions with the Canadian government. Andrew Chang explains what it would actually take to grant sovereignty to a Canadian province, and why it's so difficult to achieve. Images provided by The Canadian Press, Reuters, Adobe Stock and Getty Images

CBC

🇩🇪 🇺🇦 🇨🇦

@chris Of course that assumes people don't get really grumpy, angry, armed and decide to take things into their own hands... then another set of rules will be enforced.

Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸4d ago

@ManyRoads ya, thankfully, i think that possibility is extremely extremely remote.

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@chris As as Quebeckers who has lived through 2 referendums...

In Québec it was driven by cultural emotions stirred by the yes camp. Video of residents of Brockville ON stepping onto and spitting on a Québec flag was shown over and over for 2nd one.

With today's disinformation tools, Danielle/Donald J Smith would be able to stirr up anger against Canada very easily and if the residents will be sucked into that propaganda. Don't underestimate it.

@chris @jfmezei

There is a large contingent (~60%) of Albertans who are strongly opposed all of this, and only 8% who are strongly committed to this. The numbers are nothing like they were in Quebec. But you are right, we shouldn’t be complacent: the remaining 30% need to hear from Quebecers about everything your province lost just from going through the process: the businesses and investment moving that moved out, the people who decided they’d rather live somewhere else. Even if the Alberta bid fails spectacularly a year or two from now, the consequences of people even thinking it’s possible are already being felt.

Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸4d ago

@DavidM_yeg @jfmezei yup! that point is well made in the video as well.

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@DavidM_yeg @chris DOn't underestimate the brainwashing once Danielle J Smith starts to list all the stuff Alberta pays to Ottawa and never gets back. (not mentioning for instance that she is the one who refused money to help transition from oil to renewables). it will all paint it as Alberta money going to help subsidize the french in Québec or central canada /Toronto).

Remember how Trump was able to hoodwink people into beleiveing windmills cause cancer. Don't underestimate propaganda.

I don’t underestimate it… I get an earful every day: she and her gang have been at it for decades, and have only managed 8% solid support. There is about to be a pile more money for propaganda flowing in from the US.
Having said that, news from across the border is pretty effective anti-propaganda right now (except for the true believers), and so what we really need is for anyone on the fence to hear how the Quebec experiment with separatism tanked the economy for a long time.

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@chris The UN charter recognizes the right to self determination:

Article 1, paragraph 2, states that one of the purposes of the United Nations is the following:
To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace.

After Québec, Canada passed a referendum law to require a referendum be clear and supported for the federal govt to honour it.

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@chris So if Alberta gets a yes to a clear question on separation with appropriate support, Canada will have to honour its results and be forced to negotiate.

And the negotiations will be in line of limiting the damage and ensuring BC remains connected to Canada (right of free passage on highways etc).

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@chris When Canada became a country, the first nation treaties signed with the crown were transfered to Canada who has to honour them. One would assume that a separating Alberta would also have to inherit and honour the portions of the treaties that pertain to Alberta. I don't think this would be a big issue, and Donald J Smoth would likely even promise better trearment of first nations under separate AB to gain votes.

Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸4d ago

@jfmezei this is all part of the video! It's well done. And makes that point that while all of this is technically possible, the actual likelihood of everything lining up resulting in separation is very slim in indeed. The indigenous question in particular I think is a show stopper because the treaties were signed with the Crown before Alberta was even a province.

Gordon J Holtslander 4d ago

@chris @jfmezei If Alberta attempts to separate they would have to negotiate with the First Nations treaty holders. That would be a very interesting negotiation as the separatists have nothing but ignorance and outrage to bargain with.

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@pinhman @chris Not necessarily. Alberta can simply take on existing first nation treaties and honour the portions that pertain to its territory.

In fact, it would be likely that Alberta would inherit all federal govt laws at time of separation and then decide what to do with them over time.

What is not automatic are international trade deals between Canada and other countries. Can't be just transfered to AB without OK from the other country.

Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸4d ago

@jfmezei @pinhman i dont think First Nations see that as that simple at all.

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@chris @pinhman Did first nations object to Canada repatriating constitition and the treaties effectively becoming between Canada and first nations instead of UK and first nations?

Same would happen when portions related to Alberta are transfered to the new country of Alberta. Now, if Alberta becomes a US state, this become more problematic because lacking the autonomy of a free standing country, it can't necessarily honour those treaties.

Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸4d ago

@jfmezei @pinhman the question is much more clear now. They believe that the law is clear. They did not make treaties with Canada or the UK governments but the Crown itself.

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@chris @pinhman You need to remember that "crown" referes to a neutral owner. And its management was passed from UL to Canadian government in 1931. So first nations negotiate with Canadian government , not the Queen/King.

So it is quite possible that management of those treaties is simply devolved to Alberta who would then engage to honour them.

Today, when you step into first nations reserve, you don't go through UK customs.

Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸4d ago

@jfmezei @pinhman with respect, I think First Nations disagree. As far as they are concerned, they decide who they talk to because they are the original signers of the treaty, not the Canadian gov.

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@chris @pinhman If you have a treaty that guarantees X, and a new landlord says it will honour the treaty and guarantee X, then you don't have much of a choice.

Where there can be a fight if if first nations argue they are not part of Alberta and thus remain part of Canada when Alberta separates. And that causes a whole hell of a lot of problems for all those "unceeded territory".

Need to check constitution act to see if Alberta's boundaries exclude first nations under separate treaty

Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸4d ago

@jfmezei @pinhman First Nations are the landlord.

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@chris @pinhman You made me to it !
Alberta Act

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/csj-sjc/constitution/lawreg-loireg/p1t121.html

The Alberta Act, 1905, 4-5 Edw. VII, c. 3 (Can.)

An Act to establish and provide for the Government of the Province of Alberta.

British North America Act passed by UK Parliament.
geographical boundaries do not exclude first nationsl and, so they are part of Alberta.

Paragraph 16 deals with laws existing prior to Alberta being created.

Part I: The Alberta Act - Enactment No. 12

Final Report of the French Constitutional Drafting Committee

Account has moved 4d ago

What if the other party is a raging racist that hates your guts? Does that not enter into the equation?

@chris @pinhman

Gordon J Holtslander 4d ago

@jfmezei @chris The First Nations and Alberta hold no agreements, the treaties supercede Alberta. It has no authority to “take the treaties” unless the First Nations agree to this first. Alberta did not exist prior to Canada and the treaties.

Richard Nairn 4d ago

@jfmezei @pinhman @chris No, the treaties predate Alberta and were not made with Alberta. They are made with the crown. The First Nations have already made their position clear.

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@RichardNairn @pinhman @chris Like with Québec, Alberta separation won't happen, but Danielle J Smith is intent on wasting mushc time on issue which forces cogent debate on the legalities and process of separation.

The "yes" campaign will run on emotions and disinformation, and it is up to the no campain to get trhe hard facts to prove it is not to Alberta's advantage.

If the "no" focuses on issues that are easy to solve, it will backfire and yes will win.

Richard Nairn 4d ago

@jfmezei @pinhman @chris She will keep it going cause that’s what her base wants. It doesn’t have to be realistic. She is populist…

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@RichardNairn @pinhman @chris If Alberta were to overwhlemingly vote "yes" on separation, you'll find first nations willing to accept transfer of treaty to Alberta in exchange for a few goodies not provided by feds like drinking water etc.

Prior to referendum, one needs to weed out political posturing against it from realities should it go through

Richard Nairn 4d ago

@jfmezei @pinhman @chris I would not bet on First Nations accepting such a transfer of rights.

Gordon J Holtslander 4d ago

@jfmezei @RichardNairn @chris From a history of neglect, mis-management and dishonor I doubt First Nations would accept any agreement from Alberta separtists.

Its the separtists that must first make an agreement with the treaty holders.

Or the separtists can try to make the case that international treaties are worthless with international law

Richard Nairn 4d ago

@pinhman @jfmezei @chris The Alberta Act of 1905 established the province but did not devolve the treaties as they pre-existed and are constitutionally protected. Alberta can’t negotiate the treaties.

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@RichardNairn @pinhman @chris as a province, Alberta cannot negotiate the treaties. You are correct. But if Alberta becomes its own country, has happened to Canada, it would inherit its obligations under variety of treaties.

Gordon J Holtslander 4d ago

An Alberta state would have nothing, it inherits nothing, it is owed nothing. It did not exist as anything but a territory of Canada that was granted provincial status.

Prior to that, what is now labelled Alberta, was lived on and managed by First Nations that existed long before Canada itself existed.

It would exist from the generosity of Canadians and First Nations.

This new state would be dependent on international cooperation and support, while it works to deny the obligations it has to international law.

@pinhman @jfmezei Let's hope it never comes to this.

Anti Faisisteach Saebhiar 4d ago

@MartyB4 @pinhman @jfmezei Truly. An "independent" Alberta would quickly become a vasal of the US. All they would own is self pwn.

Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸4d ago

@jfmezei @RichardNairn @pinhman i don't think so. And I think this line of reasoning is disrespectful.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd9g4dpjwgvo

King expressed 'concern' over Alberta separatists, say First Nations chiefs after meeting

Indigenous leaders made Charles aware of the "threat" posed by the movement during a meeting in London, they say.

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@pinhman @chris @RichardNairn key phrase: Those treaty rights are protected by the Canadian constitution, which recognises and affirms them.

The king of Canada has interest in ensuring Canada follows its laws. Hence the meeting. But at best he would suggest thé Canadian government ensure the treaty is upheld. The treaty may have been signed by UK government back when Canada was a mere British territory, but is is now a Canadian treaty.

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@chris @RichardNairn @pinhman Via Rail is a crown corporation yet not owned not controlled by the king. The term crown is used to refer to stuff owned by or obligations held by the country , not the parliament. But parliament is responsible for managing/upholding those assets and obligations.

Paul Turnbull has moved.🇨🇦4d ago

@jfmezei Alberta is not going to vote to separate. Support for separatism in Alberta is far lower than in Quebec.

@RichardNairn @pinhman @chris

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@pinhman @chris

1980 question in alt text of image. Basically "we porposo following stuff, do you give us mandate to negotiate it with Canada and hold second referendum to enact our independance?

1995 question in alt text of image 2.
: Do you want Québec to become sovereign after having offered a new trade/political deal wth Canada?

@chris @jfmezei

The treaties were not ‘transferred’ to the Crown, they were with and are still with the Crown. The only way to manage that is to figure out how to split the relationship with the ‘Crown’ between Alberta and Canada, which can”5 be done without the consent of the first Nations of Alberta, and believe me, they are not sympathetic to the separatist cause because they have no desire to be stuck being even more directly governed by the racist yahoos who are spearheading the whole separatism thing.

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@chris Negotiating national debt split , and pension plan can be done if there is goodwill. For instance, look at the value of Canadian govt assets physically in Alberta vs those in rest of country as percentage of debt Alberta would need to take on. This was never resolved for Québec.

Monaco doesn't have its own railway or postal system, they pay France to run them in Monaco. It is likely Alberta might do the same for many services initially and progressively bring them in house.

@chris @jfmezei

“Goodwill” haha!

Alberta’s UCP has already floated the idea of pulling out of the CPP and they first decided they would be entitled to 3 times its value, and then downgraded that to ‘only’ 53% While even the most generous outside calculations run more like 25%

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/chief-actuary-disagrees-with-alberta-government-belief-of-entitlement-to-more-than-half-of-cpp-1.7417130

Chief actuary disagrees with Alberta government belief of entitlement to more than half of CPP | CBC News

Canada’s chief actuary says Alberta would be entitled to interest from the Canada Pension Plan proportional to the money Albertans invested, should the province withdraw from CPP.

CBC

Jean-François Mezei 4d ago

@chris The breakup of USSR and the Balkans provide some insight into how it could be done. (Though not sure if Soviet Union had any debts, they probably printed money to pay for everything).

AlsoPaisleyCat 🇨🇦4d ago

@chris Andrew Chang’s *About That* analyses are a genuine public service that demonstrate the importance of having a public broadcaster.

Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸4d ago

@AlsoPaisleyCat agreed!