Mastodawn

Denying trans kids healthcare or refusing to update passports with correct gender markers because of an unenforceable executive order: complying in advance

IDing customers in a bar because serving alcohol to a minor is illegal and you will get your liquor license revoked and have to shut down your bar: not fucking complying in advance dipshit. It’s the law. I can’t do shit about this. Get mad at your representatives. I have to follow the fucking law to do business. Jesus Christ

If the worst thing that’s happened to your rights in the last few years is you might have to type the number 18 into a text box you need to touch some fucking grass. Take that energy and go to a protest. Write your reps. Stop voting for Trump. Don’t vote for Gavin Newsom. Delete meta’s apps. But constantly harassing open source maintainers like we have some kind of power is wild. I am a low income marginalized woman who is just trying to survive right now and I have much larger rights issues

Daniel Neuman 4d ago

Danielle Foré

When you tell me to just not implement age declaration, do you understand you’re asking me to risk thousands of dollars in fines? Which means realistically the only way for me to not follow the law is to close my business and stop making elementary OS. Do you think it makes sense for me to decide to have no income right now in the middle of massive tech layoffs in a purely symbolic act of protest? Do you really fully understand this is what you’re asking of me?

Alice

4d ago

@danirabbit also like if it's just entering a birth date - who the fuck cares

the problematic part is not this, it's actual verification, and if you don't have it, then what's the problem

@alice exactly. Like I’m not going to die on this particularly hill. If something actually harmful was happening it would be a different calculus. But this is so ridiculous to be like whelp better self destruct over it

Eva 4d ago

@danirabbit i definitely understand the perspective of following the laws passed as written lest facing literal ruin. Personally I read the outrage as an extreme fear of slow boiling. While right now it may just be entering a fake 18 in a text box. There is a fear of continued extrapolation (that to be fair hasn't actually happened yet). That the next step "Isn't that bad" and so on. Many see it as, one step down that path is one too many. Give a facist a cookie kind of thinking.

I understand this too and... im so conflicted. I agree we shouldn't give an inch on some things. But when you threaten good people trying to do the right thing and who are otherwise absolute allies... the calculation is never simple. Everyone is scared and hurting... im sorry FOSS creators like you are targeted like this... and im sorry we, those without, are all being taken advantage of by those "with".

@smolbrain @danirabbit i mean there's also nuance here

like I'm gonna support things like ageless linux testing laws, but also just putting a date picker doesn't hurt anybody and is a pragmatic decision - and pretty much the only realistic one here when you don't have resources to test laws

Alice

4d ago

@danirabbit @smolbrain it's similar thing to when people are accused of having to use llms at work

should they try to reduce harm and keep it out of actual projects and waste it on internal shit? absolutely

should they quit their jobs in protest? uhh i mean if somebody can do that and survive then that's quite a privileged position

@alice yes exactly. I know quite a few people who have to use LLMs at work but otherwise hate them. We’re all doing what we have to do to survive this capitalist hellscape

@smolbrain

@alice @danirabbit @smolbrain

John Regan 3d ago

My core belief is this is a first-amendment issue. But in order to get that affirmed by a court - it seems like you need to have your rights infringed first.

With the law not being in effect yet, not sure what standing anybody has to claim damage.

And handling all of that is so expensive. No single person can afford to fix this. I think that's by design.

Fuckin' sucks.

@smolbrain yeah if there was a law mandating we collect IDs or create profiles or do something discriminatory then you bet I would absolutely rage against that. Maybe people don’t know or remember that I pressured Hughsie to remove queer content warnings from OARS. I feel like my track record here should mean something

Eva 4d ago

@danirabbit 1000% track record should be part of the perspective. It definitely helps keep in focus. While some compromises will be made. There are still red lines. Even i feel like... red lines are meaningless from so many lately because everyone keeps drawing a line... and now e have ICE allowed to target trans people. But your right. Just because so many have breached consciousness. We cannot fall into the mind trap of nihilism and pessimism that everyone will because some have. Either way. I wish you the best of luck. I did try elementary OS. Its a really interesting project. Not what I needed right now. But I like the idea and I hope to keep seeing it grow <3

Vincent Sparks 4d ago

@alice @danirabbit @smolbrain but if you don't attack your allies for not being as Pure and committed to your ideals as you, what's the point of being a leftist?

Philipp

2d ago

@smolbrain
What I am angry about is that 40M citizens in California make such decisions for 10B potential users in the world. It's not 'comply with THE LAW', rather comply with the law in one pretty tiny fraction of the world that in good old colonialism manner wants to make every person on earth happy by enforcing whatever shit they think is right onto them without asking.
Bonus: It's at least possible that revealing the date of birth of a user by default is AGAINST THE LAW in the European Union. So implementing such measures tells 400M people their laws don't count because 40M people think they shouldn't. @danirabbit

xyhhx

2d ago

@danirabbit @alice u know what this might even be good. now pron sites can stop asking me if im over 18 and just fetch the fake age from the os

/hj

josh g.4d ago

@alice
This. Yep. It's an inane law but that's not your fault.
@danirabbit

vepř jako pepř 3d ago

@alice it lubricates the social setting for future regressions
it gets people to build the initial infrastructure and gets people used to it

@danirabbit Yeah, I mean the current iterations of these laws from my understanding are just "have a way to enter the user's age and expose it to apps", which seems pretty harmless.

I wonder if, for now, you can simply comply be geoblocking the affected regions though? As a non-American I don't want the OS I run to be affected by a foreign country's laws, which this age API stuff atm is still ...

@danirabbit Same with the OSA for example - they specifically want "highly effective age checks" for anything with user-generated content which rn means Persona/uploading IDs or a government app that only runs on devices with SafetyNet/Apple. For the OSA, doing at the very least a geoblock of terf island and adding a TOS that declares the user to be anything but British feels less harmful than sending their ID to Thiel/Palantir or requiring they have a foreign iPhone/SafetyNet-enabled device

@pojntfx I live in California

@danirabbit Oh shoot, does that make it impossible for elementaryOS to not comply because it or you are a California entity? Or would it just mean that a Californian has to use a VPN to access say the elementaryOS APT repos? I thought it was based on whether or not you serve Californian customers, like how the OSA applies only if you serve British customers

@pojntfx IANAL, but from what I understand it applies to “operating system providers” and “covered app stores” which would include elementary and appcenter

@danirabbit Hmm, I understand. That's unfortunate if it's indeed based on where it's registered and not on where your customers are from

https://archlinux32.org/ has decided to comply by geoblocking affected regions, I guess they probably aren't affected by this then because they aren't a Californian/US entity?

Arch Linux 32

@pojntfx https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1043

Solitha 4d ago

IANAL but I do think it's about who uses it, not where it's registered.

Then again it's a pretty hollow law and they expect to fill in details with amendments. In its current state it's really too vague.

Bill Text - AB-1043 Age verification signals: software applications and online services.

AB 1043 Age verification signals: software applications and online services.

Speaktrap 2d ago

@danirabbit @pojntfx Come to Europe, we have good food and public healthcare

Eniko Fox 2d ago

@speaktrap @danirabbit @pojntfx I live in Europe, I'm sad to inform you I still have to pay rent

David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)4d ago

Thank you. I have blocked a lot of people who have called me a fascist recently.

@danirabbit which bill/law is being referred to here?

@r0k https://www.tomshardware.com/software/operating-systems/california-introduces-age-verification-law

Solitha 4d ago

California introduces age verification law for all operating systems, including Linux and SteamOS — user age verified during OS account setup

AB 1043 also requires OS providers to pipe a real-time age checker to every app developer who requests it.

Tom's Hardware

@solitha @danirabbit wow, thank you for sharing that

I wonder how they expect enterprise installs to satisfy this... what is the age of a system account, if that's all that logs in? 🤔

@solitha @danirabbit or if a system is multi-user, which user's age matters?

Solitha 4d ago

@r0k It's pretty bare-bones with a lot of question marks remaining.

From what I understand, they passed the law intending to amend it into a viable state... which really leaves devs twisting in the wind.

Kind of typical of California legislation. Probably good intention, but bad implementation.

@solitha @danirabbit yeah, I saw that in the article you shared (thanks again for that)

so much heavy lifting there:

"Despite signing it, Newsom issued a statement urging the legislature to amend the law before its effective date, citing concerns from streaming services and game developers about "complexities such as multi-user accounts shared by a family member and user profiles utilized across multiple devices." Whether amendments will materialize before January 2027 remains to be seen."

The_Decryptor 4d ago

@r0k @solitha @danirabbit You should read the actual law (It's short) rather than the reporting on it, which is universally garbage.

For starters, system accounts aren't people, nor can they use app stores.

@the_decryptor @solitha @danirabbit it reads just as poor to me
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1043

Bill Text - AB-1043 Age verification signals: software applications and online services.

AB 1043 Age verification signals: software applications and online services.

Solitha 3d ago

@the_decryptor *shrug* I already read both the law text and the reporting on it.

@r0k @danirabbit

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1rshc1f/i_traced_2_billion_in_nonprofit_grants_and_45/

r0k 3d ago

@solitha @the_decryptor @danirabbit I found this while doing more research about this

@the_decryptor @danirabbit

Solitha 3d ago

@r0k Yeah, it's not really about protecting kids. Never has been.

Just makes me wanna huck all the data collectors into the sun. So very tired of it all.

Karsten 4d ago

@danirabbit
Please correct me, if I'm wrong:
The implementation doesn't make much sense, as long as I have root privileges in my computer, as I can disable it?
@neil

@khw sure you can disable it, but then any application trying to access the age API will block the content you’re trying to access. It’s much easier to just type in an age that’s over 18. Be born in 1975 or something 🤷🏻‍♀️

Rodolphe 4d ago

@danirabbit @khw Just curious about this API thing. Is there a known API that can be used by Linux distributions for this right now or will we see different implementations until everyone agrees on it (supposedly through freedesktop)?

@rodolphe afaik there are no actual implementations yet. I don’t think we’ll see any implementations until after we have something merged into XDG portals

goedelchen 4d ago

@danirabbit @khw A real Unix / Linux person is born on 1970-01-01

@goedelchen @danirabbit @khw

paddlaren 2d ago

Well I am 11 month younger than that but pretty close. And it has actually never crossed my mind before that I am born at the EPOC year.

Kirils Solovjovs 4d ago

@danirabbit Here’s an idea. Instead of implementing age verification, one could implement a dialog confirming that user is not located in California.

Also, Estonia offers no-requirement e-residency and ability to set up a company. All without leaving your computer. Just saying.

There are many ways to fight bad laws and it seems to me that you might be in a position of significant influence here to do just that.

@k that’s not how things work. I’m technically incorporated in Delaware, but I pay payroll in California and I work here in California thus I “do business” in California and I have to register with the Secretary of State and pay taxes here and follow regulations

Penguin Rebellion 4d ago

To the best of my knowledge, none of the regulations listed here: https://actonline.org/2025/01/14/the-abcs-of-age-verification-in-the-united-states/ is currently in effect, except for the Texan situation (in effect, but blocked by a court).

So I'd say if we are serious about what phrases mean, we need to distinguish between passed, enacted, and in effect.

I get that you can't implement things last minute, but I also don't see distros coordinating and discussing whether they should resist, and what form of resistance is possible, if any. Not even the small circle of the biggest upstream ones.

That type of coordinated discussion seems to be absent from the public space, but what isn't absent is developers and maintainers tossing around their favorite "cool implementation ideas".

I'd say this is what frustrates people and makes them talk about "complying in advance".

For the record: It is highly unethical to demand from others to violate laws in effect, risking the consequences that you have described.

The ABC’s of Age Verification in the United States

Part One of ACT | The App Association’s Two-Part Series: The ABCs and 1-2-3s of Age Verification and Compliance Lawmakers across the United States are introducing a wave of age verification and parental consent laws aimed at protecting kids online. While well-intentioned, these state-by-state approaches create a confusing and costly patchwork

ACT | The App Association

@penguinrebellion @danirabbit

Tijgertje1987 4d ago

To be fair, I prefer a system like this linked to user-accounts which gets exposed to apps and browsers.
Way better than having to authenticate to a third party service.

Yes it can easy be bypassed by everyone that has root access. If you have local root I assume you are at least 16 or even an adult, so who cares?

You give the kids their own account with the age lock on it

Raspyberry 3d ago

@danirabbit this is a very naive take. Frog getting boiled.

cat::<kleinesFilmröllchen>2d ago

@danirabbit I’m hopeful that https://agelesslinux.org/ gets there first—they are very explicitly trying to get sued over this, which should hopefully clarify the legal situation soon enough. Additionally, they make some good points—for instance, there may be the good faith effort defense, e.g. you could ask the user for their age once at installation/upgrade time, prevent the installation if it’s below 18, but never store it anywhere.

Ageless Linux — Software for Humans of Indeterminate Age

cat::<kleinesFilmröllchen>2d ago

@danirabbit that’s also the point of their efforts—trying to protect you and others who are much smaller and much harder to find than someone who paints a target on their back and taunts the lawmakers.

cat::<kleinesFilmröllchen>2d ago

@danirabbit furthermore, they make the legal argument (and I think their logic is sound) that if you don’t collect age data at all, it’s impossible to determine whether your users are children, and therefore impossible to determine if you actually violated the law. so the snake eats its own tail, or nothing at all in this case.