Raphael RochetMar 12
Thom, exceedingly pure

If you hired a translator and they sent you a Google Translate translation, they would be a bad translator.

If you hired an artist and they sent you an image generated by Gemini, they would be a bad artist.

If you hired a programmer and they sent you a slopcoded website, they would be a...?

Yeah.

What is it with programmers and their desire for mediocrity?

Mar 12 at 8:59amWeb
Show threadPrincess Serena Star ✨Mar 12
@thomholwerda "Why didn't I think to use a Google tool?"
like, who would pay someone to go to <tool>.google.com? nobody in their right mind
Show threadcharlotteMar 12
@thomholwerda i hire a translator, not their tools. if they use google translate and deliver the result, what difference does that make to me?
Show thread★ 凪鈴【Nagirin】 (Anastácia) 茸形Mar 12
@halva @thomholwerda there is a mythologisation of "real genuine human labour" not tainted by tools. Particularly people who grew up without a tool or technology that is now present will view it with suspicion, as not being "proper". To people who grew up having to use physical notepads that seems like the "baseline" for notetaking, but to people who have known phones since they could talk, notetaking on a phone is equally, if not, even more "natural" and "normal".

It's imagining professionals who use google translate as just taking the raw output, which is silly.
Show threadzbrownMar 12
@nagirin @thomholwerda @halva silly, yes, happening, very much also yes.
Show threadLarry GarfieldMar 12
@nagirin @thomholwerda @halva Except ample people who are "using AI" are just taking the raw output. Programmers, lawyers... And it either blows up in their face or someone else's. Like, taking down AWS for a while.
Show thread★ 凪鈴【Nagirin】 (Anastácia) 茸形Mar 12
@Crell @thomholwerda @halva Incompetent conmen are nothing new. You don't blame the tool you blame the user. It's not the fault of an LLM because it gets misused, nor is it the fault of a hammer for being misused.
Show threadLarry GarfieldMar 12
@nagirin @thomholwerda @halva "guns don't kill people. People who have too much access to guns without any sort of safety checks kill people."
Show threadSophie OP Mar 12
@halva @thomholwerda if you wanted slop, you would not be paying for a professional
Show threadTheFwGuy 🇪🇺🇮🇹🇺🇸🖖Mar 12
@sophieop @halva @thomholwerda Paying for a professional implies to have a professional, aka somebody with knowledge enough to guarantee the job done.
Show threadLevkaMar 12

@thefwguy @sophieop @halva @thomholwerda

All that being professional means is you get paid for your work. It doesn't mean you're *good* at it.

Show threadTheFwGuy 🇪🇺🇮🇹🇺🇸🖖Mar 12
@LevZadov @sophieop @halva @thomholwerda If you are not good at your work you don't remain professional for long time
Show threadTheFwGuy 🇪🇺🇮🇹🇺🇸🖖Mar 12
@halva @thomholwerda If you can't answer to the question the problem is you then.
I bet the only thing you check before to hire somebody, is how much the translator charge.
And maybe your answer could be "hey, why hire a translator when I can use google ?"
Show threadcharlotteMar 12
@thefwguy @thomholwerda im paying to get a job done. im not paying them to perform some specific ritual. if they deliver what i asked them to do using google translate, abbyy lingvo, a 3.5 kilogram book dictionary, their own mind, an llm or all of the aforementioned in any combination doesn't bother me. they're not paid for abstract artisanship. what tools they use is none of my concern, they're being paid to be the one bothering with that and to get me the final result
Show threadTheFwGuy 🇪🇺🇮🇹🇺🇸🖖Mar 12
@halva @thomholwerda Then you have what you pay for.
Show threadOctavi NavarroMar 12
@halva @thefwguy @thomholwerda I think the OP's point is that Google Translate is really bad and no serious professional translator would ever use it to do their job.
Show threadNtropicMar 12

@octavinavarro @halva @thefwguy @thomholwerda pretty sure translators use whatever the best tool at the time is and then iterate on that result. The tool will do 90% of it well and then require intervention on the rest. Same with LLM generated code.

Most of coding is boilerplate repititions, arduous dumb things, let me focus on the added benefit I have to the project: The coordination, the data structure layout, the logic.

Show threadOctavi NavarroMar 12
@Ntropic @halva @thefwguy @thomholwerda That’s the thing though: I don't think they are good tools for these tasks.
Google Translate has no idea of the context, intention, or tone of the original author, so the real professional will have to carefully rewrite most of the text to achieve a minimum quality.
And I guess the same is true with programming. I find it hard to debug my own code, I can’t imagine how slow and miserable must be to fix everything a dumb machine broke down.
Show threadNtropicMar 12
@octavinavarro @halva @thefwguy @thomholwerda Maybe it's not for you. But also, google translate is not the best tool. I am sure many people have different workflows that work for them. People that don't like to review code should definitely not use coding agents. I personally prefer code completions.
Show threadEndlessMasonMar 12
@halva @thomholwerda
Might make a difference to your French speaking users, who think your website reads like a drunk, disrespectful child.
Show threadmanchickenMar 12
@EndlessMason @halva @thomholwerda that’s the problem. I _want_ to sound like a drunk child but the translators don’t have that setting.
Show threadEndlessMasonMar 12
@manchicken @halva @thomholwerda
The pros do.
Show threadsounddrill ​Mar 12

@halva @thomholwerda I get you but I would want the translator to agonize over the little details

This is the reason I like reading manga from scan websites, they have these little TL notes and more that make it a more fun read, in my opinion

Show threadDr. Dek 👨‍🚀🐧🚀 )Mar 12
@thomholwerda quantity over quality
Show threadAlda VigdísMar 12
@thomholwerda It's that the show-offs are much better at showing off than actual programming.
Show threadjadeMar 12

@thomholwerda i would argue that anyone who isn't reading and writing code shouldn't call themselves a programmer

but then, the distinction between "coder"/"programmer" and "software engineer" has always been pretty stark but is now far more important

some of the people who create software are crafts people who take pride in the science and the art of it

arguably the much larger percentage have never cared about the craft and just want the outcome - be it a paycheck or a tool

Show threadLars Marowsky-Brée 😷Mar 12

@thomholwerda Unless I explicitly source an artisanal translation I'd also be very surprised if a translator doesn't use tools efficiently to reduce the billable hours though ...

I'd expect it to not be a loss in quality however.

Show threadCassandrichMar 12
@larsmb @thomholwerda There is no way it reduces the billable hours without drastically hurting quality. If you actually know the languages involved, translating does not take more time than careful consideration of whether a candidate translation put before you accurately reflects the meaning. The latter is *more tiring* because it feels like you're doing nothing, but if you get numb to that, you'll do a bad job.
Show threadAlexanderVIMar 12
@thomholwerda I would say neither of those people is a translator or an artist at all.
Show threadCopernicronMar 12
@thomholwerda I’ve been creating software for twenty years. IMO the biggest problem is that word got out there’s money to be made, and that has attracted all the liars and frauds who used to go into finance. Those of us with the talent and passion for building things are just as frustrated by the boot camp morons as anyone else.
Show threadJakeMar 12
@copernicron @thomholwerda yes, and most of the time it's the same old grifts wrapped up in software.
Show threadmossmanMar 12
@thomholwerda during a recent new project kick off, the client from a very large multinational engineering concern, who is in charge of upgrading a complex package of in-house tools, waxed lyrical about how great AI was for refactoring ancient code into modern programming languages and then validating the results against the old system output. I hope my face didn't betray the instant disappointment I felt. Trying to keep an open mind on this one...
Show threadTheFwGuy 🇪🇺🇮🇹🇺🇸🖖Mar 12
@thomholwerda Sorry ... who only use AI to code is NOT a programmer, this is exactly the point, the dream of every CEO.
Using "normal" people instead of professionals to "develop" code (and thus paying almost nothing). It the holy grail for greedy CEO and stockholders.
40 years developing software and I assure you NOBODY I know desire for mediocrity, quite the opposite.
There is a LOT of people without ANY capability willing to be called "developer" and AI is the way these people can put their foot in.
Vibe coding my foot.
Show threadSkyboy GamesMar 12

@thomholwerda
If you hired a programmer and they sent you a slopcoded website, they would be...

...dead to me.

Show threadMassimo LucianiMar 12
@thomholwerda on the bright side, slopcoded software doesn't really work. Either you have a very simple app/website/other software, or the AI messes it up in some way!
Show threadJoachimMar 12
@thomholwerda @dimsumthinking I‘m afraid we, as software developers, are attempting to bring everyone down to our level…
Show threadBrian SimmonsMar 12
@thomholwerda ridiculous deadlines and constant pressure from management
Show threadJoeJoeTom (aka Eerie Tom)Mar 12
@thomholwerda “There is little demand in the commercial world for excellence. There is a much, much bigger demand for mediocrity.” —Paul Arden, 2003
Show threadTravis NiceMar 12

@thomholwerda

Peter Drucker summed it up best when he said “What gets measured gets managed”.

When lines of code are what you are measured by, then that’s what you get managed by.

Show threadArchiveScribeMar 12
@thomholwerda Many of them, unfortunately, are being forced to do this by their employers, who are likely going to use that tech they're making them use to replace the workers in the future. It's like having to use/train your replacements.
Show threadFOSS DevMar 12
@archivescribe That's fantasy. Any tech company that does not listen to tech people for tech decissions will nose dive. Seen it happen more than once.
Show threadArchiveScribeMar 12
@sysedit If by tech people, you mean an enterprise engineer or someone overseeing the process, yes. If by tech people, you mean entry-level devs, sadly, increasingly, no.
Show threadEtchMar 12
@thomholwerda
i think its because programmers see their code as a means to and end, they dont care about how they get there as long as its good enough at reaching it
Show threadSlightlyCyberpunkMar 12

@thomholwerda It used to be said that the best programmers were the laziest -- they were the people who would rather automate the task than do it themselves!

Although there's some leeway that needs to be made for novelty...most good coders would rather spent ten hours automating something even if it would only be three boring repetitive hours to do it themselves.

But using the AI is only superficially lazy. You spend even more time fixing its mistakes, analyzing its convoluted code, dealing with the imprecision of natural language, typing prompt after prompt after prompt...it's a non-programmer's simulacrum of what programmers want.

But they're able to sell it because we don't see programming the way we see these other jobs. We see it as a means to an end, and as a rather pure expression of capitalism. "Move fast and break things" is straight out of Marx. That phrase is how so many see programming but it's really about the eronomics. Using the AI isn't programming, it's LARPing as a shitty CEO.

Show threadClickyMcTickerMar 12

@thomholwerda If you hired a scribe, and they handed you an auto-generated audio transcription which didn’t have typos, they would be…?

If you hired a fact checker, and they used an AI that responded correctly, they would be…?

If you hired an artist, and they spent ten minutes adjusting an AI image prompt until it provided exactly what you asked for, they would be…?

If you hired a driver, and a Jaguar with a partition and a bunch of spinning sensors showed up and safely drove you to your destination, they would be…?

Genuine question: What is the difference between human-generated and AI-generated when the output is the same?

If you hired a tailor to make you a pair of pants, are you going to think less of their work if they use a sewing machine versus a loom versus a couple needles? What about if they asked an AI to use their automatic sewing machine?

You can make the argument that you think certain tools produce worse results, but that’s not the argument I see presented.

Show threadClickyMcTickerMar 12
@thomholwerda To be clear, I’m neither pro-AI nor anti-AI. It’s nifty and I’ve gotten real use out of it, but it’s also currently overhyped and resource intensive with most of them trained unethically. I’d love to see a world in which AI is trained ethically, doesn’t drain our resources, and provides a benefit to people as a tool. That’s not where it is, but I’m not going to entirely write it off yet.
Show threadGustavoMar 12

@thomholwerda You are thinking translators have a high bar for quality!!!

I have seen anime translations done by humans (fans or professionals) that have lower quality (or as equal quality) than if they are done by LLMs. Most people have issues judging translation quality because they watch translated things because they don't know the original language and blindly trust the translator. I can give so many examples of bad translations! I have two websites dedicated to that.

Show threadVictoria🏳️‍⚧️Mar 12

@qgustavor @thomholwerda Tom is a translator by trade btw.

Also, bad human translations don't mean that LLM translations are good. Like, that's kinda not how providing an arguments works

Show threadGustavoMar 12

@tragivictoria @thomholwerda Sure, but they are ignoring that there are lots and lots of bad translators. It's like a Picasso arguing on the internet that people are fine with paintings made using camera obscura ignoring that there are lots of artists that are worse than him.

Also, I'm not defending AI, I didn't say LLMs are any good, I just said there are people who manage to make their work worse than one. I said, I have two websites, one with thousands of mistakes of professional translators and one in which I fixed lots and lots of fan translations.

If there are people fine with LLMs it is because the bar is already too low. That's not a LLM issue: in many cases translation isn't considered a worthy job as it should be.

Show threadVictoria🏳️‍⚧️Mar 12
@qgustavor @thomholwerda I mean anime translations aren't all types of translations? I honestly don't know what to say, as an (amateur) translator I am honestly insulted.
Show threadX_Cli ⏚Mar 12
@thomholwerda I believe some may have overinterpreted that a good dev is a lazy dev.
Show threadYoraMar 12
@thomholwerda They are not programmers.
Just like they are not artists or translators.
Show threadSalem's LotMar 12
@thomholwerda The revealing part is: For the last 20-30 years everybody thumbed on different methodologies (Scrum, Crystal, XP, Pair Programming, Object Oriented, Hexagonal Architecture, Domain Driven Design)...and now it just matters that code works in 95% oft the cases. It was never about maintainability it seems, it was all a lie. The stakeholder just want: Cheap and Shoddy.
Show threadmorganist ⧖ ☮Mar 12
@thomholwerda computer-assisted translation is BIG for saving time and basically the standard if you require any translating at scale. however, there's a massive difference between an unredacted google translate output and the same text reviewed and edited by a professional translator
Show threadVictoria🏳️‍⚧️Mar 12
@morganist @thomholwerda is it? Like my biggest use case was at most saving my fingers from typing, back when I contributed to Mozilla and Pontoon offered machine-translated suggestions, because generally they were constantly wrong/needed corrections.
Show threadmorganist ⧖ ☮Mar 13
@tragivictoria @thomholwerda yeah translating software is quite different i guess, i haven't done it but i've used obviously machine-translated apps and it sucked. i guess it's because the translation app doesn't have much context to work with when translating individual strings
Show threadOriel Jutty Mar 13
@morganist @thomholwerda I've heard the opposite from translators, i.e. that it's easier to translate from scratch than to edit and fix a machine translation.
Show threadMatt HallMar 12

@thomholwerda

It's the scale. Think of the shear _scale_ of the mediocrity we could produce!

How can you be drowning in mediocrity and not understand the desire for... MORE?!

🤢

Show threadMs NgoMar 12
@thomholwerda Performative obedience, I think.
Show threadHP van BraamMar 12

@thomholwerda most programmers do not like programming.

Most programmers and IT workers are very bad at their jobs because of that. They don't like their jobs.

We got loads of people into computers because it made a decent wage, and we encouraged loads of people who got fired to retrain as programmers.

That's not a value judgement against the people in question.

But that's, I think, why. There's not that many people who code for the love of it.

Show threadCysio ​Mar 12
@hp @thomholwerda also working as a professional software developer tends to suck the love of programming out of someone