Mastodawn

Jo - pièce de résistance Mar 7

@mekkaokereke
“Steroids don't make big men angry. Steroids make angry men big.”

THIS.

TinDrum Mar 7

@mekkaokereke i'm not across the research but when puberty kicked in i turned into a gremlin

also the kind of dosage regimes bw gym bulking and gender care are likely to be quite diff

@oscarjiminy @mekkaokereke

Jay Mar 7

Yeah as a parent of 2 teens (1 cis lad, 1 transmasc son) there _is_ a period of time where it kicks in hard and the "learning to regulate your emotions" @mekkaokereke mentions has to be speedran, and during that period the chemicals sloshing in the system actually _are_ some justification for lashing out, but all things being equal that period of time is like, a few DAYS, maybe a handful of weeks tops.

TinDrum Mar 7

@jaystephens @mekkaokereke > that period of time is like, a few DAYS

sir...

Jay Mar 7

@oscarjiminy @mekkaokereke
I hear ya, but I mean, all things being equal, the period in which the parent should accept it as mostly excusing the lashing out, is only a few days long.

Excuse my
#PoFacedResponseToLightheartedPost

TinDrum Mar 7

@jaystephens @mekkaokereke yeah i'm mid fifties and the only reason i can recall puberty is cos it lasted a lengthy period where family dynamics degraded significantly over a period of time

days..?

um, if you say so i guess

@jaystephens @oscarjiminy

Mar 7

Define "lashing out." Putting your hands on someone? No. Keep your hands to yourself.

Getting emotional? Yes, that's acceptable for more than a few days. A lifetime even! 👍🏿

Jay Mar 7

@mekkaokereke @oscarjiminy
In our case it was seeing red & punching the sib.
Accepted by us parents as a mitigating factor for a few days when the hormones hit like a train. Then... Yeah, no longer even a mitigating factor, it's your problem to control your reactions, kid.

@jaystephens @oscarjiminy

Mar 8

♥️ Parenting!

TinDrum Mar 8

@jaystephens @mekkaokereke i really think, both in the case of doping gym rats and wi pubescent kids, it might be useful to at a little texture and context

a kid in a supportive family whose folks apply themselves to whatever issues a child/children are experienceing with love, compassion and trust is very diff from a kid with little support or structure

the same might be said of a fella who may well be bulking to assuage a profound sense on insecurity and inadequacy

@oscarjiminy @jaystephens

Mar 8

100% agree! But in both cases, the issue is not the steroids. The issue is societal acceptance of violence by men that can't regulate their emotions.

I was serious when I said "Petulant man-baby."

Steroids did not give this man anger issues. Steroids made him feel invincible, so he got in road rage fights with women on the freeway.

He tried it once with a man who works as a valet in a car park on LA, and got beat up (fighting is a skill). Then he went to Hawaii, and attacked more women. Then he went to jail, and met some Hawaiians my size without steroids. Violent people find each other.🤷🏿‍♂️

This is not "roid rage." This is anger and misogyny, enabled by steroids.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fafNGY8XYG8

Infamous Southern California Tesla road rage driver assaulted by inmates in Hawaii

YouTube

TinDrum Mar 8

@mekkaokereke @jaystephens no reservations with this post excepting the fact we are overlooking factors that people often assume are oriented to abrogating responsibility but can be understood as little more than context (and therefore complicating a cohort who've been over generalised)

men need to take responsibility for regulating their emotions. this is an uncontroversial statement. how do they learn to do this is the q? anger can be triggered by all kinds of things (including confusion/frustration), it's also typically an emotional response that precludes rational assessments so if kids are getting frustrated trying to navigate their way through a growth stage that is complicating relationships and dynamics they may've thought they had worked out and they don't understand why, the might preclude a developing brain from nutting out a path through it on ints own.

without support and guidance you are building a foundation for withdrawal and alienation. that reinforces patters of behaviour that might well be antisocial (further precluding possibilities of social supports/trust/guidance)

i 100% accept mekka knowa ll of this, i'm just stepping through it cos generalisations can be problematic

so gym rats on teh bulk might well be kids who've waded their way through the above without achieving the necessary self knowledge to understand how to place themselves and their experience in a context that allows them to move forward and learn healthy, self reinforcing habits and patterns (as distinct from toxic, self reinforcing ones)

and further to this just a small bugbear – misogyny is about loathing, i really think loathing is metastasised fear and we'd do well to develop a term that emphasises the fear of women experienced by young men before it metastasises into something that may well be inoperable

@oscarjiminy @jaystephens

Mar 8

I never pass up an opportunity to push bell hooks.

https://hachyderm.io/@mekkaokereke/115916991963645774

mekka okereke :verified: (@[email protected])

@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] And for folks thinking "Are you saying that misogyny didn't play any part in Trump's victory?"🤡 Or "Are you saying Black men can't be sexist?"🤡 Or "Are you saying that women politicians don't face sexism?"🤡 Of course not. Those aren't even reasonable questions. If you ask me to estimate the combined weight of an elephant and a mouse, I'm just going to estimate the weight of the elephant. If you then say, "Are you saying mice are massless particles like photons?"🤡 I will also say "Of course not." Sexism in Black men in a racist country, can express very differently. There are many paradoxes where white women support a pro-patriarchy position to a greater extent than Black men. That doesn't make Black men, or Black women, immune to sexism. No I'm not some kind of expert on sexism or feminism. I'm an expert on US and UK racism, and have a deep understanding of the ways that fake feminism is used to advance racism in those countries. All men should read "The Will to Change" by bell hooks. It's my go to book for men to understand feminism. No book is perfect, and I 100% am not open to discussing anyone's critiques of the book online. I'm not saying that there is nothing to critique. I'm saying that it's close to perfect as an intro feminism book for men whose initial belief is "feminism is about hating men!" Or "societal power is zero sum, so if women get more, that means men will get less!" or that think that patriarchy benefits men. Audiobook: https://play.google.com/store/audiobooks/details?id=AQAAAEBs9lW2KM Ebook: https://play.google.com/store/books/details/bell_hooks_The_Will_to_Change?id=G28LTQltyVAC

Hachyderm.io

Jay Mar 8

@oscarjiminy @mekkaokereke
Yeah there's a lot of context needed before getting judgemental about any response, for sure.

A cool crab wearing shades Mar 7

@mekkaokereke There is some evidence specifically for tren causing emotional disturbance and possibly brain damage, but it's hard to study definitively and doesn't take away from your main (CORRECT) point that angry men are drawn to abusing anabolic steroids AND they are still solely responsible for any actions they take afterwards.

youknowthatonepersonwithaface Mar 7

@mekkaokereke so I am claiming purely from my experience from folks I know who take hormones for brain shit vs physical appeance.

Folms who take T-style hormones for their own thing have a DRAMATIC drop in aggression.

I'm on the complete opposite of the spectrum, I had a drop in aggression when I started taking estrogen, but the folks I know taking testosterone had a similar experience, that your brain kind of leveled off once those chemicals stooped fighting with you.

morgan Mar 7

@mekkaokereke Reminds me of a study I read about many years ago where participants had to play a typical psychology-study game where had to make a choice to be more fair or more selfish. Control group got placebo. The three experimental groups got:

* placebo, but told it was testosterone
* testosterone, but not told what it was
* testosterone, and told it was testosterone

morgan Mar 7

@mekkaokereke The ones who got t. and not told what it was played somewhat more fairly than the control group, which is interesting. But much more interesting was that the ones who were _told_ they were given testosterone played much more selfishly, whether it was placebo or not. The conclusion was that people's _idea_ of what hormones do completely overrides their actual effects on behavior.

Dan Mar 8

@mw @mekkaokereke because of lifelong hormonal issues, my E levels were high (>150pg/mL) and T levels low (<320ng/mL), all endogenous.

about six or seven years ago i started taking a non-HRT medication that cut the E to <20pg/ml and roughly doubled T (>650ng/mL).

i was more sociable, it was much easier to start conversations, and every interaction-related thing became almost weightless. T has far more to do with cooperation than aggression.

biological essentialism is a cursed idea.

Dan Mar 8

@mw @mekkaokereke i have a friend who started HRT in his 50s because of a different medical condition. he had the same experience.

more energy, easier interactions with others, and far more patience under trying circumstances.

the people flattening and corrupting the myriad ways hormones interact with behavior are demonstrably wrong and absolutely causing harm to everyone.

this is the twinkie defense all over again.

Jackie Mar 8

@dank @mw @mekkaokereke

I started estrogen after realizing I was suffering from lifelong gender dysphoria. I feel more sociable now because I hate myself less

morgan Mar 8

@mekkaokereke found the study! https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/testosterone-leads-to-fairness-not-aggression-researchers-1.796578

Testosterone leads to fairness, not aggression: researchers | CBC News

Testosterone doesn't cause people to become aggressive or risky as many people believe but actually encourages fairness, European researchers say.

CBC

@mw @mekkaokereke "Researchers at the University of Zurich and Royal Holloway, University of London conducted a study of 120 women and found that testosterone promoted fairness in a bargaining game."

120 is interesting, not proof. :)

morgan Mar 8

@CStamp @mekkaokereke Yeah, statistically not huge, and psychology-study games don't always translate well to the real world. But there are lots of other related studies if you really want to dig into it. This is just the one I remember hearing about :-).

For me, the big thing isn't so much the hormone effect, but the effect of people's _ideas_ of the hormones, which in this case were opposite to the actual ones.

Azuaron Mar 8

@mw @CStamp @mekkaokereke The same thing has been shown to happen with alcohol. As much as 50% of "drunk behavior" happens when you give people quinine and tell them it's vodka. This effect has been shown to be true across cultures, where different cultures have different ideas about what "drunk behavior" is. People act more like a stereotypical drunk for their culture, specifically.

In America, people talk about alcohol reducing inhibitions, but most of the inhibition reduction, specifically, happens when people just think they have alcohol. The alcohol just gives them permission to drop their inhibitions.

This does not mean that alcohol doesn't impact the mind. It does. It just doesn't as much as people think it does, or necessarily in the ways that people think it does, but people behave as if it did.

@Azuaron @mw @CStamp @mekkaokereke as I recall, there's a similar effect with "feeding children sugar makes them hyper", e.g. telling them this is part of it

@Azuaron @mw @CStamp @mekkaokereke see also Jimi Hendrix, who was an incredibly gentle man, but per Wikipedia citation, "turned into a bastard when he drank". Alcohol I would rank in the top 3 most dangerous substances, under meth and opiates, in that specific order. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Hendrix

Luke Kanies Mar 8

@codinghorror i think you’re misreading the study referenced above.

Alcohol doesn’t make people into assholes. Assholes use alcohol as an excuse to behave the way they want.

@codinghorror Again, different people react differently. I met someone who said he was a mean drunk when he specifically drank tequila. I know someone who turns into a teddy bear when drinking. Some people are boisterous, some introspective. Etc. Some have addictive personalties, some don’t.There are more shared things such as motor skills being affected, so no one should drink and drive. @Azuaron @mw @mekkaokereke

@CStamp @Azuaron @mw @mekkaokereke that is definitely true; the radical distortions in behavior depend on DNA/physiology. There are "happy drunks". But as my therapist said to me, ask bouncers if they'd rather work a concert where alcohol is on tap vs. THC and the response is almost unanimous

@CStamp @Azuaron @mw @mekkaokereke this is also somewhat true of opiates, if you are a "rapid metabolizer"

BoredomFestival Mar 8

@codinghorror @CStamp @Azuaron @mw @mekkaokereke The annual Behavior Training at Google had an episode where an off-site with people having wine etc was ok, but the guy sneaking a joint got the finger wag, and I remember thinking this same thing: internally, you know HR would prefer the stoned to the drunk ten out of ten times.

@Azuaron Alcohol affects people very differently. @mw @mekkaokereke

@Azuaron @mw @CStamp @mekkaokereke

George B Mar 8

Do you have a link to that paper? I remember reading it like 10-15 years ago and then being completely unable to find it again.

Azuaron Mar 8

@gbargoud Sorry, college was a long time ago, and I think I read this straight out of a text book.

George B Mar 8

@Azuaron

Damn, well at least one other person having seen that study tells me it's not something I imagined reading even if you don't have a link to it either.

Nemo Mar 8

@CStamp
depending on effect size, 120 is a good number!
@mw @mekkaokereke @mekkaokereke

@iinavpov 120 is only big enough to indicate if more study would be warranted. With regards to only women, a lot of new meds fail because they had only been tested on men, to avoid issues with monthly changes of hormone levels on their results. @mw @mekkaokereke

Nemo Mar 8

@CStamp
no, it literally depends on the effect size.

This is completely different than clinical or preclinical studies.

@mw @mekkaokereke

Cameron Watters Mar 8

@mw @mekkaokereke I don't even care if it's a misapplication of the study, from now on, I'm gonna tell people that using "woke" as a pejorative indicates low T.

Stuart

Mar 7

@mw This sounds very similar to a study on alcohol I think I read about many years ago in "Watching the English". If I remember rightly, one group was given alcohol for a party, one was given non-alcoholic drinks, and a third was given non-alcoholic drinks but told they were alcoholic. The last group also behaved "drunk". Leary "drunkenness" wasn't really a property of the alcohol (which is a depressant) but sociological.

J. R. DePriest

:EA DATA. SF:Mar 7

@mekkaokereke

One thing to keep in mind: as an adult, it is your responsibility to manage your emotions and learn how to do so in a socially acceptable way. In 95% of situations, that means not being violent.

If you are being violent, It doesn't matter why you are being violent. You are breaking the social contact.

Don't make excuses, do the work and sort your shit out.

There are multiple types of therapy and various medications that might help. You have to take care of it. You can't make it everybody else's problem.

@jrdepriest @mekkaokereke

Captain Button Mar 8

And if you find that certain sorts of things push you close to that line, avoid those situations or learn to just shut up and walk away, no matter how bad it makes you look or feel.

Justin Free Mar 8

@jrdepriest @mekkaokereke
You've perfectly described resentment junkies that thrive on anger, threat of violence, and execution of violence. A sense of revenge is their cocaine...pure criminal temperment.

Abie Mar 8

@mekkaokereke *aste*roid rage, on the other hand... :p

Michael Bacon Mar 8

@mekkaokereke

I have no idea what testosterone or PEDs do. The steroid I've taken is prednisone, almost always for poison ivy.

The worst bout with it was when I was a camp counselor and the idiot doctor who wrote the scrip, because of confusion between per pill dosages, accidentally put me on twice what I should have been on, for what was already a very heavy dose for me, until the camp nurse double checked and was like HOLY SHIT CUT THAT DOSE BY 2/3 NOW.

Holding your temper with a bunch of unruly 11 year old boys, some of them deliberately taken off their meds by their parents for camp, is a huge part of the job. And I will tell you that job was a LOT HARDER when I was on the mega-prednisone dose. It without a doubt made me jumpy, irritable, and kept my heart rate well above normal.

But just like being drunk doesn't make you racist, it just cuts your filter, I didn't actually *act* on being angrier. I just had to catch myself from yelling a LOT more.

diana 🏳️‍⚧️🦋🌱Mar 8

@mekkaokereke

The only thing I've seen testosterone do to masculinity is make a great big smile and happiness 💪

AlexxKay Mar 8

@mekkaokereke
Tangential to your (accurate) point: Roid-rage is a myth, but "steroid psychosis" is a real and terrifying phenomenon, one that doctors do not routinely alert patients to the risk of. It was scary enough once we understood what was happening, but before then -- brrrrrrr!

David Chasteen Mar 8

@mekkaokereke interesting note here on the "women know how guns work" comment. Baseline, American women have a significantly lower suicide rate than men because men are much more likely to successfully use firearms. *Except among female veterans* who have weapons training, are more likely than other women to own or have access to firearms and the same suicide rate as male veterans.

David Chasteen Mar 8

@mekkaokereke This is also likely one of the boring reasons behind the high suicide rate among both veterans and police. They just have access to the tools necessary to kill someone successfully.

Jeffrey Haas Mar 8

@mekkaokereke I work in tech with a lot of Indian folk.

The women that talk (and talk over) people the way the men do get a lot of crap. And, sadly, that's what it's taken many of them to get ahead in their careers.

People on TRT often are no more "aggressive" than other men, but sometimes it's not as "regulated". It seems to come out more unexpectedly.

But, as women regularly experience, it's always there and often too much.

studio craque 54 🏳️‍🌈Mar 8

@mekkaokereke I'm confused, I didn't think anabolic steroids and testosterone therapy were the same chemical.

I don't take either, but my father took T shots for many years to treat symptoms from prostate cancer.

Lower testosterone is also associated with higher symptoms of migraines in men, which I can attest to reducing after changing to a daily workout that naturally raised my testosterone.

My personal evidence is that raised T does not lead to being more aggressive; if anything, it has helped me treat CPTSD. So from a T perspective, I am in agreement. But I thought steroids acted on the body much differently than testosterone therapy.

Are they different?

They're mostly the same.

Let's say that a steroid free 20 year old man has a baseline testosterone level of 1.0. Testosterone level decreases slowly over time.

By the time he hits 30, it will be 0.9.

When he is 40, it will be 0.8.

Testosterone therapy is basically a doctor saying "Hmm. You're 40. Your level should be 0.8. and it's natural to feel older... but your level is only 0.6! That's extra low! So I'm going to prescribe you 0.3 to start! You'll feel like you are 30 again!"

The man might report feeling even *better* than he did in his 30s, because maybe he was only at 0.7 when he was 30.

Now consider a bodybuilder at 20 years old. His natural level is at 1.1, a little higher. He goes to a drug dealer and either buys Testosterone, or more likely, something that will make his body product more testosterone. His testosterone level is now at 4.0.

studio craque 54 🏳️‍🌈Mar 8

@mekkaokereke Thanks for the explanation!

When I tested with low T at age 50, my doctor suggested I add some weights to my daily routine - on our scale of 1, I was at 0.01

This was the best advice for me because it led to the discovery of how good workouts lower my migraine activity.

Coincidentally, I heard this story yesterday on LAist about Looksmaxing, a trend where men put their looks above anything else. "Soft looksmaxing" is like nutrition and diets and working out, but "hard looksmaxing" is when enhancements like steroids are used.

Yeah, be careful, a lot of that looksmaxing culture thing is misogyny with extra steps.🤷🏿‍♂️

It's "If I were just a little better looking, I'd be in a much better position to mistreat women!🤡"

It's very fascist adjacent.