PitouFeb 9
Eugen Rochko

RE: https://mastodon.social/@verge/116041069446538092

We’ve moved our internal communications from Discord to Zulip at Mastodon, and I think there are plans to do the same for our Patreon community Discord. The harder part will be untangling my gaming communities from this…

Feb 9 at 3:35pmWeb
Show threadΛευτέρης Τ.Feb 9
@Gargron why not matrix?
Show threadDmian 🇪🇺Feb 9
@lefteristrip23 @Gargron I’m just guessing, but maybe because they’re a small team that needs a solution and not another service to manage and maintain? Sometimes you just want a no-friction service that won’t add extra load on your employees. But that’s me speculating. There could be a way different but completely justified reason. These are smart people, and I trust they know what they’re doing.
Show threadΛευτέρης Τ.Feb 9
@dmian @Gargron to be fair, matrix isn't quite there yet, indeed
Show threadDmian 🇪🇺Feb 9
@lefteristrip23 @Gargron Even if it was, and it will be a mature platform one day, you always need someone to take care of it. It’s the same with everything you install on a server. And sometimes, you’re not eager to do that. 😝
Show threadEricFeb 9
@lefteristrip23 Far from 1:1 feature parity. No integrated voice or video in most implementations (leveraging Jitsi or something similar in many cases) is a big knock against Matrix.
Show threaddraeathFeb 9

@Gargron @lefteristrip23 this may be relevant (not like using discord was better, heh)

https://social.treehouse.systems/@ariadne/116042443866561242

Ariadne Conill 🐰:therian: (@[email protected])

matrix E2EE channels are fucking stupid because they leak all sorts of metadata for example, the topic is unencrypted reactions are unencrypted replies reference unencrypted MXIDs so you can tell what is being replied to even if the payload itself is encrypted do not use them. do not waste your time on them. it is not worth it.

Treehouse Mastodon
Show threadZiege LightbocksFeb 10

@lefteristrip23
@Gargron

Also the nature of Matrix service seems basically resource-heavy (everything on server all the time), and I think that's why I haven't really seen libre/community/openhobby servers for it like I do for XMPP

There are some Matrix subscription servers that may plug and play for the pay, I think. But I'm not sure that increased cost would be worth any practical differences from a well matched xmpp client, for a small organization.

Show threadMr. Bruno Feb 9
@Gargron I had to make sure this wasn't from The Onion.
Show threadAndy L.Feb 9

@Gargron Edit: I didn't realize that Zulip is Open-Source. So, corporate, maybe, but not closed source.

Original Toot :

Isn't there a non-corporate solution?

There's more than a little unfortunate irony in the Mastodon team jumping ship from Discord to another corporate provider that just hasn't entered its enshitification phase yet.

Show threadEugen RochkoFeb 9
@apLundell Zulip is open source though?
Show threadAndy L.Feb 9
@Gargron Oh, I guess it is. Then I retract my criticism. Sorry.
Show threadtshepangFeb 9
@apLundell does corporate mean the project is controlled by a company
Show threadTargrusFeb 9
@Gargron .. I had not seen Zulip before. Thank you for putting it on my radar. 👀
Show threadDmian 🇪🇺Feb 9
@targrus @Gargron Same. Also, thanks to this Discord affair, I learned about Stoat (formerly Revolt) https://stoat.chat
Stoat - Find your community

Stoat is the chat app for friends and communities that finally works the way you always wished it would.

Show threadTargrusFeb 9
@dmian I too had bookmarked this to see what other options folks were mentioning. Though personally I think the vibes are really off with Stoat. I don't think a one to one recreation of Discord is where I'd wanna go either.
Show threadLeonFeb 10
@targrus @dmian am thinking about programming an alternative for so long now. They literally all suck. Maybe best alternative is teamspeak again atm (until my app comes ofc)
Show threadahoyboyhoyFeb 9
@targrus @Gargron I'm standing up a Zulip right now, so I'm happy to see others choose it as well.
Show threadnoodlejetski Feb 9
@Gargron yeah, gonna be tricky to move those. especially with how convenient to use the voice channels are.
Show threadOwl EyesFeb 9

@noodlejetski @Gargron this is relevant to add here, WRT "QOS rules":

https://autistics.life/@d1/116024756035274849

Owl Eyes (@[email protected])

@[email protected] No matter what alternative video conferencing solution you pick, alas, it will live and die by how well the network routers that you traverse, treat your traffic fairly - governed by the invisible, so-called "QOS rules". "QOS" is short for "Quality Of Service", and is a technical term that Professional Network Administrators know. *Governments who don't favor "network neutrality" will almost certainly have these QOS rules skewed to the favor of the tech bros, who can afford to hire lobbyists - unlike people like you.* Unfavorable QOS rules will silently tackle down your praiseworthy efforts and unfortunately make you look bad, because you picked a solution which ultimately "didn't work" *through no fault of your own*. Whomever tries alternatives like #Jitsi, #XMPP, etc: you'll likely get silently tripped up on/mired by QOS rules when talking to *some* of your contacts. Even though I don't praise or advocate the Zooms of the world - that's where you'll likely be limping back to, unfortunately. Having said all this, I'd suggest giving #Signal video chats a cautious try. It might work for *smallish* numbers of people having group video chats. #infosec

Autistics Life Community
Show threadJimmothy BagginsFeb 9
@Gargron matrix has been a bit of a challenge with voice chat in the past. But for text chat is great. There is also Stoat Chat which does have wonderful group chat system
In place. Lastly if your a happy tinkerer than you an look into the many discord clone projects out there and build the instance locally from the many GitHub repos
Show threadPhillip Feb 9
@64bithero @Gargron does Stoat have voice chat? I can’t find anything about that, so I assume it doesn’t
Show threadJimmothy BagginsFeb 9
@phillip @Gargron for the record a few apps do offer voice chat but most that do have a Skype style call system. Stoat is the only one I know of that offers a drop in drop out style voice server like Discord has. And it’s why it’s my favorite choice
Show threadPhillip Feb 9
@64bithero @Gargron oooh that’s tempting. I tried it a while back when it was still Revolt, but they didn’t have voice chat yet. I’ll have to try it again after work today
Show threadfloFeb 9
@64bithero @Gargron

For pure voice chat: what about good ol' Mumble?
Show threadRachel RawlingsFeb 9
@Gargron I quit a writing group on Discord years ago when I noticed it was broadcasting every time I opened a game in steam, and wondered what other things it was spying on.
Show threadOwl EyesFeb 9

@linuxandyarn @Gargron I also caught Discord spying on a laptop of mine - while in sleep mode, in the middle of the night, Discord kept a laptop awake, churning hard. I heard the laptop fan whirring in the middle of the night, when it should have been silent. I determined it was #Discord, and uninstalled that motherfucker immediately. This was several years ago.

#infosec

Discord, fuck you

Show threadRachel RawlingsFeb 9
@d1 @Gargron Hm, now I wonder if this is why my wife's Windows laptop woke me at 4am a couple weeks ago. I thought it was just a side effect of patch Tuesday.
Show threadOwl EyesFeb 9
@linuxandyarn @Gargron It was a #linux install of #Discord in my case, just saying.
Show threadpounceFeb 9
@Gargron don't forget us IRC folks have been working to reach feature parity with discord the whole time that people have been moving away from it

it's a pretty good alternative these days!
Show threadweed stallmanFeb 9
@pounce @Gargron What are some of the features IRC is implementing these days that would be appealing to Discord users?
Show threadpounceFeb 9

@incentive @Gargron https://ircv3.net/ has some good information, but to name a few i don’t think many people know about:

  • persistent history (now integrated into several ircds and most clients)
  • seamless image/file upload from the app
  • multi-line and -paragraph messages
  • utf-8
  • typing indicators
  • proper replies
  • emoji reactions
  • in-app registration
  • account profile pictures / descriptions / display names
Welcome - IRCv3

Welcome to the IRCv3 Working Group. We're a group of IRC client and server software authors working to improve the IRC protocol.

Show threadweed stallmanFeb 9

@pounce @Gargron Thanks. Got some learning to do today.

I still use IRC off-and-on but never kept up with protocol updates. Plus I use Polari on Gnome so I'm guessing they have restricted a lot of these features for the sake of minimalism.

Show threadahoyboyhoyFeb 9
@pounce @Gargron better to plug xmpp I'd say, open internet standard with a much healthier ecosystem. No shade to IRC, many great communities there that I engage with via bridge.
Show threadMischaFeb 9
@Gargron Zulip doesn’t have voice right? What are you using as an alternative for that?
Show threadChrisFeb 9
@mischa @Gargron It has integration (meaning: it will create an URL to a random meeting room) for Jitsi Meet, which works well for us
Show threadГригорий КлюшниковFeb 9

I don't understand why all centralized services suddenly insist on actually verifying their users' age for real. What was wrong with asking for a birth date or even just presenting a "yes I'm 18 or older" button? NSFW websites somehow still do just fine with that, but Discord, which is much less "risky" in comparison, somehow needs real verification?

Gosh I miss the old internet.

Show threadjjsmithFeb 9
@grishka @Gargron I'm thinking it's to avoid problems with the government if it were to come to them having to come in.
Show threadEricFeb 9

@grishka "for the children" /s

It's because they want to know who you are, and they want to be able to attribute you to other services where this identity is known to build out their web of surveillance.

Show threadDarwin WoodkaFeb 9

@grishka @Gargron

It's going to kill them with the gaming community. Absolutely kill them.

Show threadOwl EyesFeb 9
@darwinwoodka @grishka @Gargron I'm with you in spirit here, but I seriously doubt this, considering the actual teens I know, and how "path of least resistance" they are. Alas, no #ElbowsUp for these heel-dragging #Canadian teens I know! I'll believe it when I see it.
Show threadSamFeb 9
@[email protected] @Gargron It all started with the UK's Online Safety Act, where we now ID for porn sites, the UK Gov has since pushed for IDing on these platforms and it's being pushed out worldwide as it's not cost effective for just one country.

It's stupid and is one of the reasons I'm finding alternatives for friends
Show threadГригорий КлюшниковFeb 9
Sam, so what happens if a porn site doesn't have any presence (e.g. a legal entity) in the UK, but doesn't ask for IDs either?
Show threadSamFeb 9
@[email protected] @Gargron If they refuse to ID people they can get 'fines of up to £18 million or 10% of qualifying worldwide revenue' whichever is bigger.

It's sadly not just porn sites but also self-help sites, subreddits, communities and all sorts now.
Show threadГригорий КлюшниковFeb 9
Sam, yeah but how could that be enforced against a foreign entity? (maybe it's a stupid question, idk)
Show threadSamFeb 9
@[email protected] You can fine foreign entities if they operate in your country. If they don't obey they can get blocked from the whole UK internet, we currently don't have access to Rule34, PornHub (at least the NSFW area) along with a few other NSFW services at all, others are IDed and illegal content has been made easier for children to find as these safer sites are now wiped out. So the OSA has done a lot more damage than fix.
Show threadJoeFeb 9
@grishka @Gargron @sam they cant, they tried to do it to 4chan and essentially got told to roll it up and stuff it up the rah
Show threadLutin DiscretFeb 9

Reminder to anyone managing a #ActivityPub project that matrix has been adopted as the chat solution by bookwyrm, write.as, friendica, plume, pleroma, fedilab, funkwhale, mitra, forgefed, mobilizon, phanpy, tokodon, moshidon, lemmy, gotosocial, bonfire, voyager, tusky, lemmy, loops, piefed, pixelfed, manyfold, owncast and others. You don't need to start from scratch if you leave discord : join us on matrix!

@Gargron

Show threadjjsmithFeb 9
@lutindiscret @Gargron Well maybe they didn't want to manage another Fedi service. So they chose a different option.
Show threadOwl EyesFeb 9

@lutindiscret @Gargron @lefteristrip23 I beg of you: not #Matrix, for anything persisting and serious *when it comes to group chat*. Has a history of exploding chat rooms, every few years or so. Track record is not good.

#Zulip is today's much more sane choice, as a place to escape to, fleeing #Discord. 👍

BTW: I'm willing to set up/maintain Zulip servers, *but for a price*.

Show threadahoyboyhoyFeb 9
@d1 @lutindiscret @Gargron @lefteristrip23 FWIW Zulip cloud offers free hosting for communities that qualify.
Show thread🫧 socialcoding..Feb 10

@lutindiscret

Indeed. There's a ton of fedi discussion taking place on Matrix.

Encourage people to check out this huge collection of #ActivityPub / #fediverse related matrix chatrooms gathered (I think) by @[email protected] in this #Matrix space:

https://matrix.to/#/#activitypub-community:codelutin.com

You're invited to talk on Matrix

You're invited to talk on Matrix

Show threadScale TheoryFeb 9

@Gargron

Make sure you use a different account name if you submit yourself to 1984 dystopia, so you screw up facial recognition subversion.

Show threadBenjamin Alan JamieFeb 9
@Gargron Thank you for the move and for talking about this publicly!
Show threadAngela ScholderFeb 9
@Gargron Never heard of that one..
Show threadWalt BaldwinFeb 9

@AngelaScholder @Gargron

zulip is excellent. good software and seems like a good group of folks at the company.

Show threadAngela ScholderFeb 9

@waltbaldwin @Gargron Tnx. With the @DutchWhovianCommunity there is a Discord server for the community, so I'm curious what the impact of the changes is going to be there.

But, also for other security and privacy reasons it most likely be a good thing to move away from Discord. But then, a large part of the community is also still mainly on Failbook and Instagram.
On Mastodon it's still a very small group.

Show threadCarlos SolísFeb 9
@Gargron I'm surprised that you hadn't yet gone full libre in regards to your infrastructure. This also means you should reconsider moving out of Github for releases in the near future.
Show threadFransFeb 9
@csolisr @Gargron Loads of organizations are trying their best to do this; but I wouldn't be surprised if some still depend on certain tooling - these things takes A LOT of energy and time and is not easy :)
Show threadIlka 🌐Feb 9
@Gargron I guess I won't be able to call Felon 47 a brown bag full of manure anymore then.
Show threadThomas TraynorFeb 9
@Gargron I have an account, but haven't used it in a while. When I get told to do that I will respond with a full middle finger scan and a suggestion where they can stick it.