Mastodawn

On my way to Munich this morning — Deutsche Bahn ICE train canceled without replacement. Couldn’t board the next train bound to Munich (run by another operator - Westbahn), so I stood in the cold for 45mins until the next DB train.
That’s where liberalisation hurts customers: multiple operators, but no cross-honoring when things go wrong. Wouldn’t it make sense to have mutual backup agreements for delays and cancellations? 🤔 @jon anything in discussions policy wise on this?

Jon Worth Jan 21

@julienmarchal this will be covered in the forthcoming Regulation, yes. As Westbahn isn’t compulsory reservation you’d have been able to take it once the Regulation is agreed.

Julien Marchal Jan 21

@jon that is AMAZING news! I thought the upcoming regulation was only about „passenger rights for multiple tickets / through-tickets involving more than one operator“. If it includes cases like these, where there are not multiple tickets or operators booked, but booked operator fails meaning customers can then hop on ANY train of ANY operator - that is indeed AWESOME! This is what’s coming?

Jon Worth Jan 21

@julienmarchal only if there’s space. But this has to be part of the reform - otherwise passengers are going to too often get stuck in the case of disruption.

Julien Marchal Jan 21

@jon agreed! But this also means it’s not yet confirmed this is part of it? I feel like this part of it is never talked about…

Jon Worth Jan 21

@julienmarchal I am quite sure it will be in the initial draft from the Commission, due in Feb or March. But then when it gets to the Council this will then be removed due to state railways lobbying to remove it.

bureauxx Jan 21

@julienmarchal @jon

ja, aber dafür bekommt man bald einen sauberen bahnsteig !;-)

Julien Marchal Jan 21

@bureaux @jon ?

bureauxx Jan 21

@julienmarchal @jon

https://www.tagesschau.de/tagesschau_20_uhr/video-1547174.html

Deutsche Bahn startet Sofortprogramm für mehr Sicherheit und Sauberkeit an Bahnhöfen

Deutsche Bahn startet Sofortprogramm für mehr Sicherheit und Sauberkeit an Bahnhöfen

tagesschau.de

Julien Marchal Jan 21

@bureaux @jon ja Gut. Man kann durchaus mehrere Sachen gleichzeitig angehen ;)

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼𝓽𝓸𝓯 𝓓𝓸𝓷𝓪𝓽 Jan 21

@julienmarchal @jon

So it's not the notoriously unreliable 100% state owned DB, that fucked up yet again. It's the relatively tiny private rail company Westbahn. It's impossible for them to buffer all the DB fuckups for free without going bankrupt.

DB also owns the tracks BTW, and therefore controls the costs for the competition. There is no free market, just a bad excuse to enshittify public transport, and have the shortthinkers blame the privatization, that never actually happened.

Jon Worth Jan 21

@cdonat Sorry but that's off. Westbahn did not have to expand to Stuttgart, but did. And can because you can actually get paths on DB InfraGo infra - as Flixtrain and many others do. The central problem is a lack of investment in that infra that blights DB and everyone else, and dates back to the 1990s. @julienmarchal

Julien Marchal Jan 21

@jon @cdonat just to clarify: I‘m not pointing fingers at Westbahn here! If at all, I‘m pointing fingers at DB! Cause DB fucked it up and they do not allow me to take the train of another operator to my destination. Westbahn on the other hand do allow this! In case they fuck up, they’ll pay for and allow you to board DB trains to your destination (also because they only operate very few trains). I just see the need to have this be fixed as part of passenger rights!

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼𝓽𝓸𝓯 𝓓𝓸𝓷𝓪𝓽 Jan 21

@jon @julienmarchal

Yes, you can get timeslots on DB infrastructure, but DB controls

1. the price
2. the quality of the infrastructure, and
3. the existence of an infrastructure.

You can only get a timeslot on tracks, that exist. Many smaller towns in Germany, that used to have a train station, don't even have tracks any more.

And on investment, who would have to have invested in that infrastructure? The 100% state owned DB, maybe?

Jon Worth Jan 21

@cdonat Hey, thanks for explaining Germany to me. I am German and rail policy is my job. And 2. is not really fully in DB's own control, but the state's, and the state under invested. Oh and I now live in France, and you're complaining about Germany not having a dense network? 🤔 You're complaining at a high level. @julienmarchal

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼𝓽𝓸𝓯 𝓓𝓸𝓷𝓪𝓽 Jan 21

@jon @julienmarchal

I'm German as well, and now live in Switzerland. I use the Swiss train network pretty much every day. Germany has no dense net at all.

It used to be dense. My mom used to take the train to her home town in eastern Bavaria, when she was young. But the tracks don't exist any more. And that's by far not the only town, that has been cut off from the train network in the last decades.

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼𝓽𝓸𝓯 𝓓𝓸𝓷𝓪𝓽 Jan 21

@jon @julienmarchal

The infrastructure should be separated from the train operation. The train operation should be really privatized, i.e. sold. The infrastructure instead should be organized just like the road infrastructure.

Then the state could sell timeslots to anyone, who wants to operate trains.

@julienmarchal
Not sure where you got the ticket and if this was an international route. According to Deutsche Bahn and German regulation, you can take the Westbahn, pay for the ticket, and ask for reimbursement from DB. https://www.bahn.de/service/informationen-buchung/fahrgastrechte/rechtliche-regelungen

Andere Züge nutzen: Sie können andere, nicht reservierungspflichtige Züge nutzen. Sollte eine Fahrkarte erforderlich sein, müssen Sie diese zunächst bezahlen und können sie sich anschließend erstatten lassen.
@jon

Ihre Rechte als Fahrgast im Eisenbahnverkehr

Hier finden Kunden der Deutschen Bahn alle Regelungen zu den Fahrgastrechten im Eisenbahnverkehr.

Julien Marchal Jan 21

@j_j @jon but can you also use another train from another operator? And how shitty will DB be to pay me back my money? I will not pay 60€ out of my pocket and then have to fight for it with the prospect of not ever getting it back

@julienmarchal @jon Yes, that's my understanding. Any train, any operator, they should reimburse you.

Expertenkommision Cyberunfall Jan 21

where does this "liberalisation" not hurt customers?

Jon Worth Jan 21

@expertenkommision_cyberunfall Errr because the Westbahn is cheap? And customers like that? And also *if you setup the rules right you can overcome the downsides*. Oh and were the Westbahn not there, would there necessarily have been a DB train for @julienmarchal to take?

Julien Marchal Jan 21

@jon @expertenkommision_cyberunfall spot on @jon!

Expertenkommision Cyberunfall Jan 21

Ah, yes it is cheap and realiable and they pay their workers as good as the DB and they deliver better service as an public owned/federal owned could. Sure.
And if the market demands something (ok, i do not like to name people "market", so) sorry, if the people demand connections a public/federal owned could not deliver this.

Jon Worth Jan 21

@expertenkommision_cyberunfall @julienmarchal You said: for customers. I answered for customers. You reply for workers. Can you make up your mind?

Expertenkommision Cyberunfall Jan 21

@jon @julienmarchal

Sure, I alwys presume that a well paid worker is always a good thing for the customer.

Lupo_Bavaria Jan 21

@julienmarchal @jon This is the result of 3 right-wing politicians of the party CSU responsible for traffic in Germany: Ramsauer, Dobrint and Scheuer

Julien Marchal Jan 21

@rainerku @jon how is that? Liberalisation of railway sector is coming from EU

Jon Worth Jan 21

@julienmarchal Bit of both. Some in some Member States pushed it, and EU has been happy to go along with it too, and driven it somewhat. It is not ALL the EU's doing for sure. @rainerku

Julien Marchal Jan 21

@jon @rainerku ok, didn’t know! Thx!

Lupo_Bavaria Jan 22

@julienmarchal @jon As a result of the 3 conservative CSU ministers for travel the annual investments per person in Germany were reduced to 1/3 in comparison with Switzerland and Austria.