Malte EngelerToday is the first "Digital Independence Day" #DID, proclaimed at the #39C3 by several digital policy NGOs and EU corporations. It advocates switching from Chrome to Firefox, from GMail to ProtonMail, from Google Search to Ecosia etc This is framed in the familiar story of taking away power from US tech monopolies and strengthening (European) alternatives.
The name "Independence Day" (intentionally or not) evokes picture of the US declaration of independence towards the British Empire, turning the American colonies into sovereign states. This mirrors how European policymakers talk about "digital sovereignty" and how the broader tech community is focussing on "Big Tech“, or the „Broligarchy“ etc.
Much has been said about "digital sovereignty" and how it risks reproducing notions of nationalism, patriotism and European exceptionalism while obfuscating more systemic issues of market based economies, e.g. in this post by @alineblankertz:
https://www.structural-integrity.eu/on-tech-sovereignty-how-to-nail-jelly-to-a-tree/
On tech sovereignty - how to nail jelly to a tree
After briefly commenting on the EuroStack, politics have continued to escalate, warranting another, slightly longer post on the broader European perspective. What is the policy context, what kind of sovereignty is implied in the current policy developments, and what is to make of this? Europe’s a
Just as with "digital sovereignty" I have substantial reservations regarding the value of a campaign like "Digital Independence Day". While I undoubtedly encourage everyone to use services that are less toxic than others this focus on individual usage and European alternatives comes with all the baggage discussed at length elsewhere.
It focusses on monopolies while ignoring that all capitalist competition demands corporations to favor profit over user interests, no matter whether it is a US or EU tech company. It focuses on supposedly "ethical alternatives" while ignoring that no corporation is your friend. European tech companies might appear less problematic right now but they still are privately owned corporations. Switching to their services is like choosing a more polite or familiar tyrant.
The question (for me) is: Do the benefits of campaigns like #DID outweigh its downsides? The answer for me - sadly - is: No, they do not. Campaigns like these take away attention from truly transformative approaches like socializing digital platforms. I hear people saying that you can do one thing and still also do the other. I don't think it works like this. At least not when the latter message is not front and center in campaigns that focus on the first.
#DID could use the collective marketing and star power and advocate for more than a more friendly European capitalism. And maybe some people will connect the dots themselves anyways. I doubt that the current messaging is enough for that though. To the contrary: I suspect the campaign will reinforce nationalistic ideas while also creating confusion about the history of colonialism and the workings of capitalism. As I see it, #DID would more accurately be named "digital overlords swapping day"
Marcus Richter@malteengeler Wie mans macht, macht man es falsch... @hagen
iyzana@malteengeler I've mostly only seen the announcement by Marc-Uwe Kling. I feel like this sentence from the talk portrays the goal as I see it quite well: "The goal is less dependency, less monopolies, less surveillance capitalism". That, to me, encourages truly open, social, human focussed alternatives and excludes "swapping the overlord" to just another european/national company and I don't understand where that interpretation comes from
eLearningTechie@iyzana @malteengeler
Agree that the word 'sovereignty' is politically too loaded to be useful.
I also think some of the examples on the campaign website are ill-chosen. Promoting open-source solutions (regardless of geography), particularly the decentralised and self/community hosted ones, would have been preferable.
That said, you gotta start somewhere. 🤷♀️
Agree that the word 'sovereignty' is politically too loaded to be useful.
I also think some of the examples on the campaign website are ill-chosen. Promoting open-source solutions (regardless of geography), particularly the decentralised and self/community hosted ones, would have been preferable.
That said, you gotta start somewhere. 🤷♀️
@eLearningTechie I don't consider open source a challenge to capitalism. And self-hosting is - to me - dangerously close to elitism. Sadly, you are making my case here by showing the confusing effects of this campaign first hand.
@malteengeler My world is more nuanced than just black and white, and is big enough to accommodate all kinds of approaches and models. Besides, I said [self/] *community* hosted, i.e. a group shares the knowledge, cost and admin burden rather than individuals struggling around by themselves.
Pontiff Fractal Tiam@malteengeler could you elaborated the core message?
#DID could use the collective marketing and star power and advocate for more than a more friendly European capitalism.
@pft I am happy to. What are you interested in?
@malteengeler I can follow your arguments but I'm not sure if you're proposing an alternative.
The article by Aline clarified various understandings of "digital sovereignty" for me and was very insightful, but again I ask myself "what is the next step?". Is there some kind of roadmap, with values and goals, that I, as an "IT person", can implement/follow/contribute to get one step closer to "digital sovereignty"?
@pft First: thank you for taking the time to read Aline's article. Second: I don't know you and your expertise. And I don't have "the roadmap" for you. I myself am part of several groups that work on projekts of different stages. One of these is #Redscout24, an initiative that proposes to socialise Immoscout24 (see the #39c3 talk: https://media.ccc.de/v/39c3-redscout42-zur-digitalen-wohnungsfrage#t=2024). On a more fundamental note I would encourage to question whether "digital sovereignty" is a useful goalpost in general.
RedScout42 – Zur digitalen Wohnungsfrage
@malteengeler that video was on my watch list and now I had to finally watch it :)
The proposed solution in this specific case is collective ownership, or socialization of the digital infrastructure to counter concentration of power that leads to speculation with scarce resources.
This could be a definition of digital sovereignty, and an abstract roadmap. So let's communicate it.
I don't know you and your expertise.
Gut so! I see someone like you (legal scholar, active in politics, part of social collectives) and I wish for comprehensive yet concise assessment of the status quo and a proposal for an alternative. That is exactly what #DID are trying to do (regardless of their success).
Rebecca Sieber@malteengeler Ehrlich gesagt finde ich diese Haltung genauso elitär wie die "Sollen sie doch freie Software benutzen"-Haltung der TechBros. Bei X, Meta oder ByteDance zu bleiben und auf eine Vergesellschaftung zu hoffen (wie auch immer das funktionieren soll und wie auch immer dass diese Plattformen besser machen soll), muss man sich auch erstmal leisten können bzw. man muss angepasst genug sein, um die Zeit dafür zu haben und nicht heute schon mundtot gemacht oder gar verfolgt zu werden.
@resieguen Ich rate niemandem dort zu bleiben. Ich ermutige eindeutig, zu wechseln. Es geht mir nicht um billiges, privilegiertes Hoffen (und dort wo ich trotzdem solche Muster zeige, nehme ich dir Kritik an). Mir geht es darum, dass solche Kampagnen denn Effekt haben, Aufmerksamkeit und Aktivität zu binden und Fehlvorstellungen darüber zu nähren, welche grundlegenden strukturellen Ursachen unsere Misere hat. Ich sehe konkret im #DID mehr Ablenkung als Aktivierung.
@resieguen Es wäre natürlich möglich gewesen, die konkreten Tipps mit Aufklärung darüber zu verbinden, was die Ursachen sind und welche systemischen Veränderungen eigentlich angestrebt werden. Leider sehe ich da nicht nur eine Leerstelle, sondern die (guten) Tipps werden eingebettet in ausdrückliche (und mittelbare) Erzählungen der besseren europäischen Unternehmen. Und an der Stelle kippt "Luft nach oben" für mich in "hinderlich".
@malteengeler Also an sich finde ich deine Kritik schon wichtig. Ich erinnere mich aber die letzte große medienwirksame Aktion von Jan Böhmermann, der sowohl Werbung für's Fediverse gemacht hat *als auch* die Vergesellschaftung von großen Social-Media-Plattformen gefordert hat. Das war damals aber auch nur so eine Phrase. Vielleicht fehlt mir die nötige Fantasie, aber ich kann mir nicht im Ansatz vorstellen, wie das funktionieren könnte und ob das Ergebnis überhaupt wünschenswert wäre.
@resieguen Ob du das Ergebnis für wünschenswert hälst, ist natürlich eine persönliche Frage. Wie das konkret aussehen kann, ist aber etwas an dem viele Leute konkret rumkauen: Das Beispiel "Deutsche Wohnen & Co Enteignen" ins Digitale übertragen ganz vereinfacht. Ich hoffe, dass das ein Projekt wird, das in den nächsten Monaten und Jahren sehr, sehr viel mehr Aufmerksamkeit, Engagement und Hirnschmalz unserer Community bekommt.
Michael@malteengeler What I'm hearing is: Don't do anything, until we can implement perfection straight away. Just from the posts on the Fediverse, DID really seems to have legs.
And it does some harm reduction: If it's a EU company, I can crush it. At least in theory. Sure, it might take the rest of my life. But I can get ardent socialists elected who will happily nail the owners of any company which steps out of line.
I don't have even that theoretical possibility for US companies.
(Andreas Bulling) has moved@[email protected] @malteengeler And what I am hearing is: "We only have to get rid of capitalism and then digital sovereignty can/will happen.".
Good luck with that.
I see more meaning and higher chance of success in trying to do the latter through different means including #did rather than hoping/waiting for capitalism to disappear. If this happens at all it'll take far too long.
@abulling "Getting rid of capitalism" will not magically make everything wonderful, no.
Moving beyond it is the necessary starting point though. We won't change things (meaningfully) within its limiting frame. Of course we can still improve things and that is why I would always support people switching to Mastodon (I am running an instance for a reason), Proton or Startpage. But basing a campaign on just that has the effect you are demonstrating: It limits our horizon.
@malteengeler One can have a bigger horizon but still understand that directly implementing a big vision can be too ambitious, infeasible/unlikely to work out in practice as too many and powerful enemies would have to be fought.
And that the smarter thing to do is to follow a policy of gradualism/shifting baseline. This is what #did is in my opinion. Raising awareness, changing the narrative, giving people the right tools to change.
See the fight against the climate collapse and #bigoil
@abulling #did is (to me) very similar to lowering your personal carbon footprint: Installing energy-saving lightbulbs, switching to another energy company, install solar on your roof, buy a TV with lower standby energy drain etc. That's all good and well but not a challenge to corporate power and the results it always produces. Claiming otherwise will keep people preoccupied while business as usual continues.
☠️ DJT@malteengeler I always read things like "socializing digital platforms".
But no definition of it or how it should be done.
Only shooting against #did from your side.
But no definition of it or how it should be done.
Only shooting against #did from your side.
@totentanz I am sorry that you have that impression but (in part) your impression seems to come from you being unfamiliar with my account. If you are interested check out the #Redscout24 talk at #39C3 here
https://media.ccc.de/v/39c3-redscout42-zur-digitalen-wohnungsfrage
or come to Nürnberg next Friday:
RedScout42 – Zur digitalen Wohnungsfrage
@malteengeler
Good argument for shooting against #did. Not.
Socializing in the context of digital sovereignty does mean exactly what for you?
Good argument for shooting against #did. Not.
Socializing in the context of digital sovereignty does mean exactly what for you?
Till Kleisli@malteengeler wo sind denn die konkreten Ansätze digitale Plattformen zu sozialisieren? Und wie unterstützt du diese Transformation bzw. wie kann ich diese unterstützen?
Bei social media gibt es das Fediverse, das immer noch eine sehr kleine Nische ist und auch in der Kampagne gepusht wird. Aber sonst? Die meisten Menschen nutzen Meta, Microsoft, Apple oder Google und denken nicht darüber nach. Das will der #did ändern.
Bei social media gibt es das Fediverse, das immer noch eine sehr kleine Nische ist und auch in der Kampagne gepusht wird. Aber sonst? Die meisten Menschen nutzen Meta, Microsoft, Apple oder Google und denken nicht darüber nach. Das will der #did ändern.
@kleisli Ich vermute, dass du erst über diesen Thread auf mein Profil aufmerksam wurdest. Hier sind zwei konkrete Beispiele:
Der #Redscout24 Talk auf dem #39c3:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wpRZZAKo3tA
Und ein Follow-Up Vortrag in Nürnberg nächsten Freitag:
39C3 - RedScout42 – Zur digitalen Wohnungsfrage
@malteengeler korrekt. 😊
Ich finde auch, dass man über solche Modelle reden muss und versuchen muss diese zu implementieren, aber redscout42 ist aktuell nicht etwas das es gibt und das man nutzen kann.
Ich habe neben dem Ideal von genossenschaftlich getragenen Plattformen einfach noch ein paar Grundsätze an denen ich mich orientiere.
Dezentral > Zentral
Offen > proprietär
KMU > Konzern
Regional > global
Ich finde auch, dass man über solche Modelle reden muss und versuchen muss diese zu implementieren, aber redscout42 ist aktuell nicht etwas das es gibt und das man nutzen kann.
Ich habe neben dem Ideal von genossenschaftlich getragenen Plattformen einfach noch ein paar Grundsätze an denen ich mich orientiere.
Dezentral > Zentral
Offen > proprietär
KMU > Konzern
Regional > global
@malteengeler und wenn du konkrete Inputs hast, welche gemeinschaftlich getragenen Plattformen und Tools man als Alternativen zu oft genutzten Angeboten nutzen kann, gerne her damit. 😊
Okuna@malteengeler I think the main topic is because the monopolies and big tech are 99% coming out of the US and the alternatives are small and mostly coming from Europe. We identify the digital independence day with getting away from US companies while it actually should mean we are getting away from monopolies.
I totally agree we should change the business models, but I don't see this happen and I don't see even first steps taken, so I think this could send at least a message.
We should really think about independence and being in power of our own devices.
This to me also means fridges, washing machines, etc. And here I also see that we become more and more dependent on cloud and accounts. By European companies
I totally agree we should change the business models, but I don't see this happen and I don't see even first steps taken, so I think this could send at least a message.
We should really think about independence and being in power of our own devices.
This to me also means fridges, washing machines, etc. And here I also see that we become more and more dependent on cloud and accounts. By European companies
@Okuna What you describe is what most people are (I guess) supposed to make of the campaign. And it is exactly what I am worried about: You assume (or your words insinuate) that monopolies are a foreign element to capitalism, that EU corporations are somehow different and that they will not in a heartbeat kill for the chance to be exactly what Big Tech is now. It is this kind of myths that are reproduced that I am afraid of.
@malteengeler then my insinuation was wrong. What I wanted to say was that currently in the digital space the monopolies are American and this is the reason why people mix it up with the geopolitical situation. Being against US tech. I am against monopolies, no matter in which country they are, and I am against being highly dependent, no matter where the companies are based or come from. If there would be a Hungarian monopoly in the digital space or in any other space, I would have exactly the same ideas than with the American big tech at the moment.
@malteengeler to me, monopolies are a topic in capitalism. Twenty years or longer ago, I always claimed, and was laughed about, that the final version of capitalism is monopolies. And that hence we have to be very careful with our capitalism. And since Europe is capitalistic as well, we face the same issues. There is a slight difference in capitalism in the US and in Europe, but at the end of the day, even European companies would like to be in the same position as big tech is. To give you an example, we have fewer car companies than 50 years ago.
@Okuna We seem very much in agreement.
»ƑŗǡǹǩƁĮǡċǩ⁷⁸«@malteengeler Ich denke mir so, da gibt es die erste Aktion mit etwas Reichweite, Aufmerksamkeit und möglicherweise auch Impact seit einiger Zeit, super.
Und dann fängt man wieder an sich innerhalb der Community zu zerfleischen.
Naja. Ist ja nicht so, dass ich Deinen Punkt nicht verstehen würde, aber anstatt ihn clever in die Diskussion mit einfließen zu lassen und die Welle zu reiten, schießt man sich lieber auf das potenzielle Trägermedium ein. So als ob die genannten Punkte in der jüngeren Zeit irgendeine Aufmerksamkeit gehabt hätten die man ihnen potenziell wegnehmen kann (was ich nicht denke).
Ich denke btw trotzdem, dass man das eine tun kann ohne das andere zu lassen und die Kolonialismusdebatte gehe ich auch nicht mit. Die kostet allenfalls Glaubwürdigkeit.
Karsten@FrankBlack78 genau diese Gedanken habe ich auch beim Lesen der pro/contra Threads.
Ich halte DID für einen wichtigen ersten Schritt weg von (US) Big Tech, kann aber gleichzeitig Argumente von @malteengeler , @Lilith und anderen gut nachvollziehen, dass es (kritisch) zu hinterfragen ist bei EU BigTech zu landen.
Aber aus der Praxis (außerhalb IT-bubble): wie viel schwerer soll es für wechselwillige Nutzer*Innen denn noch werden? Was ratet Ihr denen?
Ich halte DID für einen wichtigen ersten Schritt weg von (US) Big Tech, kann aber gleichzeitig Argumente von @malteengeler , @Lilith und anderen gut nachvollziehen, dass es (kritisch) zu hinterfragen ist bei EU BigTech zu landen.
Aber aus der Praxis (außerhalb IT-bubble): wie viel schwerer soll es für wechselwillige Nutzer*Innen denn noch werden? Was ratet Ihr denen?
Fripi (DECT 3034)@malteengeler I did enjoy reading some criticism of this and think it is totally warranted, while I still think the answer is yes, there is some benefit.
Maybe it is just that people actually do think about services and do consider more than just convenience. I doubt I can get many to change to Foss right away, but getting the feeling of being in charge might be the spark they need to move on.
Let's see who is right in the end. Thank you for your thoughts.
wuppi@malteengeler this is not at all about cooperations but about minimizing my own risks and becoming more independent from big tech wherever they are located. You tell us that working on this while still doing other things is not going to work. But if that is true you are doing the exact same thing by trying to discredit this initiative instead of working on what it so important. This makes me sad.
Marc@malteengeler competition makes innovation. You confuse market share power with capitalism.