Andreas Schantl
Eugen RochkoI certainly hope the EU can put the same sanctions on the US for attacking Venezuela as they did on Russia for attacking Ukraine. This is indefensible.
Miro Collas@Gargron Won't happen. It *should* but it won't.
kolya
ismailghedamsi@kolya @Miro_Collas @Gargron they have sanction on UAE individuals over Russia but none on them for backing up the RSF in Sudan. The reality is that the EU major countries are just hypocrites that have selective application of values
HTPC NZ@Gargron pigs will evolve to grow wings and fly before that ever happens, as always rules for thee not ourselves. More like it will be how to form an alliance - "in the name of to stop a dictator or war on drugs" - definitely not for own corporations to have a chance of getting even a tiny piece of the pie afterwards...
Mario Ostolaza
GM7077
roboberto
Simon dē Gulielmō 🐧@Gargron I doubt it, but some European countries might show a bit of a backbone and at least protest.
GeofCoxIt will strengthen the voices of those governments and parties pushing for distancing from the US rogue state, against importing their low-quality foods, etc, against media hate-speech, for privacy, digital sovereignty, etc, etc...
Erik Sandblom 🌻@Gargron Ukraine has a legitimate government. Venezuela does not.
Thibaultmol 🌈@eriksandblom @Gargron ah, so we can bomb the shit out of it then? aight...
Davey@thibaultmol @eriksandblom @Gargron the US will fix it like Afghanistan
Joking aside, the only petrostates that are required to have a legitimate government are the ones who don't play ball with the US and we all know it
Saudi Arabia or the Emirates aren't getting bombed
olderEU did not recognize 2024 elections and Maduro's "win":
https://www.dw.com/en/eu-extremely-concerned-over-venezuela-election/a-70043273
Alexandre Olivastill indefensible, but you seem to have fallen for the long propaganda campaign to manufacture pseudo-legitimacy for the attack. ¿ever heard of juán guaidó, the previous attempt? that name is now a joke for actually illegitimate powers trying to pass for legitimate.
CC: @[email protected]
CC: @[email protected]
blackRAT 
@eriksandblom @Gargron
Of course that is the reason of the attack... as was the mass-destruction weapons for the Irak war... it's a colonial war no more and no less
Of course that is the reason of the attack... as was the mass-destruction weapons for the Irak war... it's a colonial war no more and no less
Celia Valdeolmillos@blackRAT @eriksandblom @Gargron Venezuela has petroleum...a lot of it. That is the reason. And their government has been elected, whether we like it or not, so....if we doubt about the legitimacy of that government we could doubt of the legitimacy of any government. Full stop.
Zeeshan Ali Khan 
🇺🇦@Argyle13 @blackRAT @eriksandblom @Gargron according to Wikipedia:
"In 2024, Maduro ran for a third term in an election which the Maduro-aligned CNE claimed he won—without providing evidence—starting another political crisis.[16] Vote tallies gathered by the opposition showed that their candidate, Edmundo González, had won the most votes.[17]"
So saying he was "elected" is a long stretch.
@zeenix @Argyle13 @eriksandblom @Gargron
ok, and Trump did not call for a coup on the 06/01/21, pardoning anybody after his reelection, as been condemned many times (sexual abuse, financial fraud, classifed documents theft, 34 felony!!!) but could be elected, is making the USA a dictatorship, but, hey! no problem he's perfectly legitimate acting like that
ok, and Trump did not call for a coup on the 06/01/21, pardoning anybody after his reelection, as been condemned many times (sexual abuse, financial fraud, classifed documents theft, 34 felony!!!) but could be elected, is making the USA a dictatorship, but, hey! no problem he's perfectly legitimate acting like that
@blackRAT @Argyle13 @eriksandblom @Gargron I'm not defending Trump. I only meant what I wrote. This was *wrong* regardless of any facts about Maduro.
However comparing the situation with that of Russia's full scale invasion of a democratic country with the aim of complete elimination of that country, resulting in hundreds of thousands of casualties (including a large amount of children) and widespread torture, that still rages on after 4 years, is very much apples and oranges.
@zeenix @Argyle13 @eriksandblom @Gargron
riiiight, of course, nothing else will happen in Venezuela now Maduro has been captured, Trump and his fascists will let people of this country decide what they want to be.
oh and of course the arguments of drug trafficking is very rational after pardoning 2 narcotic traffickers: Ross Ulbricht and Juan Orlando Hernández
Russia with Ukraine and USA with Venezuela have exactly the same intentions: imperialism
riiiight, of course, nothing else will happen in Venezuela now Maduro has been captured, Trump and his fascists will let people of this country decide what they want to be.
oh and of course the arguments of drug trafficking is very rational after pardoning 2 narcotic traffickers: Ross Ulbricht and Juan Orlando Hernández
Russia with Ukraine and USA with Venezuela have exactly the same intentions: imperialism
@blackRAT @Argyle13 @eriksandblom @Gargron I pointed out at least 3 major differences. Deliberately shooting missiles at ordinary civilians on almost daily bases for 4 years, is in no way comparable to this situation and less to do with any strategies and more to do with Putin's vendetta.
But you continue with your hot take, ignoring important facts and making incorrect conclusions from people pointing out facts that don't fully align with your opinion.
@zeenix @Argyle13 @eriksandblom @Gargron
Ok, so
1st argument: Maduro has been not really elected; Zelensky has been really elected... ok but you realise this one is the justification, not a real intention?
and if I talked about Trump it is precisely because coming from him as a corrupted, supremacist and convicted (for so many things), with a very questionable system of election.
If those Venezuelan election are problematic (and I think it is) you support those who oppose or, if you believe on the UN or the international court, you start the procedure. Let's be clear, even in the USA, what he's doing is absolutely illegal
@zeenix @Argyle13 @eriksandblom @Gargron
2nd argument : comparing Russia vs Ukraine and USA vs Venezuela
Of course it’s different ! Comparing 4 years and 1 day is irrelevant. But it doesn’t mean the intentions are not exactly the same. Strategies will probably be different, but the goal are exactly the same
@zeenix @Argyle13 @eriksandblom @Gargron
And historically we can see 2 main colonialisms :
the English one : you conquer, you put a local at the head of the new system and as long as they enrich you and you keep the power, ok no problem.
the French one : you conquer, you put one of your guys at the head of your new territory and you try to keep control as much as possible.
And, USA always has done the English way… all over South and Central America since the beginning. And let’s be clear (one more time) : USA won’t stop here. It’s the FIRST day.
Over history Russia was more a frenchy conqueror btw
And for the moment we only can guess what Trump will do.
And historically we can see 2 main colonialisms :
the English one : you conquer, you put a local at the head of the new system and as long as they enrich you and you keep the power, ok no problem.
the French one : you conquer, you put one of your guys at the head of your new territory and you try to keep control as much as possible.
And, USA always has done the English way… all over South and Central America since the beginning. And let’s be clear (one more time) : USA won’t stop here. It’s the FIRST day.
Over history Russia was more a frenchy conqueror btw
And for the moment we only can guess what Trump will do.
@zeenix @Argyle13 @eriksandblom @Gargron
But the main thing is : for Ukraine and for Venezuela the arguments for the attacks have always been false
Ukraine : oh wait there are nazis ! Let’s go attack (and don’t bother about the coal, iron, uranium, etc., over there, nor it was our historical imperial territory and denial of auto-determination)
Venezuela : Hey ! A narco’s at the head of the country ? Attack ! (and really it’s not about oil and our colonial control over the centuries)
That is… imperialism : submit others for your own good.
But hey, you know what I’m probably ignoring important facts… oh and of course I did not understand what you were saying.
But the main thing is : for Ukraine and for Venezuela the arguments for the attacks have always been false
Ukraine : oh wait there are nazis ! Let’s go attack (and don’t bother about the coal, iron, uranium, etc., over there, nor it was our historical imperial territory and denial of auto-determination)
Venezuela : Hey ! A narco’s at the head of the country ? Attack ! (and really it’s not about oil and our colonial control over the centuries)
That is… imperialism : submit others for your own good.
But hey, you know what I’m probably ignoring important facts… oh and of course I did not understand what you were saying.
@zeenix @Argyle13 @eriksandblom @Gargron
But let’s see where this conversation all began. At first, it was about international sanctions for illegal international actions : attacking another country/population without any real reason (« narcotraficking », « nazis »).
But let’s see where this conversation all began. At first, it was about international sanctions for illegal international actions : attacking another country/population without any real reason (« narcotraficking », « nazis »).
@zeenix @Argyle13 @eriksandblom @Gargron
The questionable argument was : « Ukraine has a legitimate government. Venezuela does not. » Ok… then why nothing is done with Russia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, RDC, etc. This argument has been totally irrelevant, and the arguments I was trying to have (probably poorly formulated, and sorry if I made you think I thought you were defending the american fascist), as comparing Trump and Maduro’s elections, were to point out this irrelevance. The reasons of the attacks have never been about drugs… or elections by the way. It is only imperialism, nothing more and nothing less.
The questionable argument was : « Ukraine has a legitimate government. Venezuela does not. » Ok… then why nothing is done with Russia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, RDC, etc. This argument has been totally irrelevant, and the arguments I was trying to have (probably poorly formulated, and sorry if I made you think I thought you were defending the american fascist), as comparing Trump and Maduro’s elections, were to point out this irrelevance. The reasons of the attacks have never been about drugs… or elections by the way. It is only imperialism, nothing more and nothing less.
Carlos Guerreiro@zeenix @blackRAT @Argyle13 @eriksandblom @Gargron
Yes, I agree with you. It's not even close to comparable with Russia's attack on Ukraine.
It's not new for the US either.
Yes, I agree with you. It's not even close to comparable with Russia's attack on Ukraine.
It's not new for the US either.
@zeenix @Argyle13 @Gargron @blackRAT @eriksandblom
The saddest thing for me is that we are so dependent on the US (security, financial infrastructure, information platforms, ...) in Europe that our governments feel they cannot take a public position against anything the US does, no matter how reckless or atrocious.
We really need to get out of this hole.
The saddest thing for me is that we are so dependent on the US (security, financial infrastructure, information platforms, ...) in Europe that our governments feel they cannot take a public position against anything the US does, no matter how reckless or atrocious.
We really need to get out of this hole.
@zeenix @Argyle13 @blackRAT @eriksandblom @Gargron
As far as I can see there are at the very least serious doubts about the legitimacy of Maduro's government. My best guess would be he probably lost.
And it's no doubt a terrible government for Venezuelans.
However that's far from enough to justify the military intervention.
It's illegal under international law, it's illegal under US law. It's a huge escalation in using the military without oversight. It's (yet another) terrible precedent for "might is right".
It creates an extremely dangerous situation for Venezuelans.
It's done unilaterally, under pretext.
It appears to be a Panama style intervention where they depose Maduro by capturing him and removing him from the country. It creates a power vacuum the US will not take responsibility for. They will keep intervening through other means but I very much doubt they will own what they break providing assistance.
Worst of all, there is a long history of US intervention in Latin America with disastrous results and the worst motivations. The biggest difference now is one of style - the bragging and bluster in how it is communicated and justified, the complete disdain for any restraining or oversight is particularly shocking to us in "allied" (if that's even still a thing) countries, but I suspect it looks a lot less novel when seen from Latin America.
As far as I can see there are at the very least serious doubts about the legitimacy of Maduro's government. My best guess would be he probably lost.
And it's no doubt a terrible government for Venezuelans.
However that's far from enough to justify the military intervention.
It's illegal under international law, it's illegal under US law. It's a huge escalation in using the military without oversight. It's (yet another) terrible precedent for "might is right".
It creates an extremely dangerous situation for Venezuelans.
It's done unilaterally, under pretext.
It appears to be a Panama style intervention where they depose Maduro by capturing him and removing him from the country. It creates a power vacuum the US will not take responsibility for. They will keep intervening through other means but I very much doubt they will own what they break providing assistance.
Worst of all, there is a long history of US intervention in Latin America with disastrous results and the worst motivations. The biggest difference now is one of style - the bragging and bluster in how it is communicated and justified, the complete disdain for any restraining or oversight is particularly shocking to us in "allied" (if that's even still a thing) countries, but I suspect it looks a lot less novel when seen from Latin America.
Lars@eriksandblom @Gargron A legitimate government is the protection for getting bombed? not like the people themselves? weird
Samuel@eriksandblom you can't be serious. So all democracies can feel free to bomb non-democracies? Convenient! For some reason US doesn't bomb Saudi Arabia with its horrific practices against women, lgbtq people, atheists and other activist. Oh, I forgot, they're allies so then they turn a blind eye. This is against international law @Gargron
@eriksandblom they're not bombing Venezuela for the benefit of the Venezuelan people (quite the opposite, they are the ones being bombed), they are doing it because of geo politics and natural resources @Gargron
🐈⬛David Sommerseth@eriksandblom @Gargron There are also lots of people claiming USA doesn't have a legitimate government. As well as the governments in Ukraine, Turkey, Iran and lots of other countries.
What is being legitimate depends on the eyes which looks.
And regardless of that, it is still not a valid reason for any country to attack another country. Domestic issues should be resolved domestically.
Attacking Venezuela is at the core the same reason why USA attacked Irak: Oil ... Whatever USA claims is just a defection to try to hide their real motives.
Benj⛧min@eriksandblom @Gargron What an absolutely disgusting take. “It’s okay to kill people if they aren’t under the blanket of a government.”
GTFO.
Fabio Manganiello@eriksandblom @Gargron yes, agreed. So? You oust Maduro through international isolation, by strengthening its opposition, and by encouraging citizens to protest against him until he’s either gone or dead.
Not by bombing Caracas.
When Trump encouraged his Nazi minions to march on Congress on January 6th I can’t recall any nation bombing Washington the next day to prevent America’s slide into fascism.
Plsik (born in 320 ppm)@eriksandblom @Gargron My country is currently ruled by incompetent, greedy idiots and a populist oligarch. Almost all of them are facing criminal charges and, of course, enjoy immunity. My stupid fellow citizens elected them. Legally. Does that mean the US can kidnap them, bomb our cities, and install its own oligarchs in their place?