thefloweringashDec 9
jwz

Today in Email Hegemony.

Here are the 2025 top ten domains from orders placed on the @dnalounge store. Remember this the next time someone uses email as an example of a federation success story.

73.0% gmail.com
8.5% yahoo.com
7.1% icloud.com
2.6% hotmail.com
0.7% outlook.com
0.6% aol.com
0.5% comcast.net
0.5% me.com
0.4% sbcglobal.net
0.3% live.com
5.8% everything else

https://jwz.org/b/yk0O

Dec 9 at 3:05amjwz.org
Show threadNigel Wadsworth šŸ‡¦šŸ‡ŗDec 9
@jwz Wow. the move from me.com to iCloud.com seems to have worked for Apple. I wonder what Mac.com is.
Show threadC.Dec 9

@jwz

Unfortunately, "Google has 73% of my email, because they have 73% of everybody's email" doesn't roll off the tongue quite as nicely.

As a mail admin, I (*#$@W( *hate* Gmail.

#gmail #email #rfc821 #hegemony

Show threadAndrew  Dec 9
@jwz even better is when I use my custom domain on a website (which uses Tuta Mail) only to be told itā€™s not a valid email address, because I decided not to use fucking Gmail.
Show threadphilosophizes whilst swimmingDec 9
@jwz @piepants thatā€™s what happened to me: paid for a runbox address, couldnā€™t buy things from some websites, couldnā€™t communicate reliably with some attorneys and relatives when it mattered. Back to gmail. Thereā€™s a stink of wrong here, maybe even illegal.
Show threadTom TomDec 9
@adardis @jwz @piepants that seems very odd to me. I've never had any problem using my own email with my own domain name. Actually I use very often the fake email [email protected] form and it always go through the form.
Show threadAndrew  Dec 9
@tomtom @adardis @jwz Iā€™ve only had it a couple of times thankfully. Hasnā€™t been enough of a problem to make me want to go back to Gmail.
Show threadGreg WhiteheadDec 9
@jwz Yeah, I ran my own email server until defending against spammers became a full-time jobā€¦ and google still had the ā€œdonā€™t be evilā€ motto when I moved to gmail. Sigh
Show threadLudovic :Firefox: :FreeBSD:Dec 9
@grwster @jwz you can move elsewhere now
Show threadPip! Gold  Dec 9
@grwster @jwz I ran my own mail server for many years. I currently run a mail server for $work; I absolutely do not want to do that all over again for my personal mail anymore. I pay a hosting service (not Google) to run a mail server on my behalf for my personal domain. Sigh.
Show threadRob IsaacDec 9
@jwz itā€™s remarkable to me that people with yahoo.com addresses are permitted to pester local businesses from whatever elderly assisted living community they are currently residents of.
Show threadjwzDec 9
@rmi It's the AOL addresses that get me. I don't have a lot of septuagenarian customers. A few. But not *that* many.
Show threadsrslypascalDec 9

@jwz @rmi

Maybe there's a statistical over-representation of necrophilia in your sample? šŸ¤”

Show threadRoadskater, Ph.D.Dec 9
@jwz @rmi I have one longtime friend who uses an aol.com address. Probably because he has done so for 30+ years, but ick. He's not 70+ yet, but getting closer.
Show threadWim šŸ…¾ā†’ā“‰Dec 9
@rmi @jwz The implication being that people over a certain age should not use email?
Show threadJames HenstridgeDec 9
@jwz And presumably a decent proportion of "everything else" has a Google or Microsoft MX record.
Show threadjwzDec 9
@jamesh Various local EDUs make a strong showing in there, but yes, presumably.
Show threadJames HenstridgeDec 9

@jwz it looks like all four of the big universities in my city are on Office 365 mail these days.

That's quite a change from back when I was in uni, where each individual department ran their own independent mail systems.

Show threadDominic šŸ‡ŖšŸ‡ŗ šŸ³ļøā€šŸŒˆ šŸ‡ŗšŸ‡¦Dec 9
@jamesh @jwz Back when rocks were warm, I adminned a mail server which had a public address of the form department.site.company.tld.
This was a bit of a pain when people moved departments, so they did eventually set up simple company.tld mailboxes too, and people decided which to forward where.
Show threadelektronDec 9

I'm proudly in the "everything else" category here...

Hey @jwz, Would gmail users with custom domain names get lumped into "everything else" too? prolly more of that data is google's than meets the eye?

Show threadjwzDec 9
@elektron Yes, this only counts the email addresses people typed in.
Show threadAlex KeaneDec 9
@elektron @jwz And some Microsoft. My work email is an Ohio.gov, but we use Microsoft Exchange to host.
Show threadThomas SibleyDec 9
@jwz I still get a kick out of emailing my father-in-law at his ancient (but working!) netscape.net address.
Show threadDonCCDec 9

@jwz @dnalounge

sabotage google. surveillance Nazis.

Show threadscott fDec 9
@jwz and now my email chains are getting spammed with this. Great.
Show threadjwzDec 10
@scott Ah yes, Previously: "New Gmail war crime spotted in the wild" https://www.jwz.org/blog/2025/01/new-gmail-war-crime-spotted-in-the-wild/
New Gmail war crime spotted in the wild

MIME-Version: 1.0. From: ā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆ <ā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆ@dnalounge.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2025 11:17:21 -0800. X-Gm-Features: AWEUYZlā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆ_ā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆ-ā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆ_ā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆVNcM. Subject: Re: ā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆā–ˆ To: Jamie Zawinski <[email protected]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006c4c9e062cc90b73" --0000000000006c4c9e062cc90b73. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" ...

Show threadpanuDec 9
@jwz
It would be interesting to learn what percentage of all Mastodon accounts is on mastodon.social.
@dnalounge
Show threadDianeDec 9

@shadowdancer @jwz

Likely ~26%

https://arewedecentralizedyet.online/

(I'm assuming the largest instance is mastodon.social)

Are We Decentralized Yet?

A site with statistics regarding how concentrated user data is on various web services

Show threadpanuDec 9
@alienghic
Okay, thanks! It isn't as bad as I thought then.
@jwz
Show threadChao-c'Dec 9

@shadowdancer @alienghic @jwz I was analyzing instances of my followers and it is like:

mastodon.social 416
mastodonczech.cz 315
witter.cz 105
f.cz 84
mastodon.arch-linux.cz 84
cztwitter.cz 75
bsky.brid.gy 42
mas.to 42
mstdn.social 37
mastodon.online 34
mastodon.world 31
infosec.exchange 22
mastodon.pirati.cz 21
mamutovo.cz 20
vivaldi.net 18
mastodon.scot 14
c.im 14
chaos.social 13
pixelfed.social 12
kolektiva.social 11
fosstodon.org 11
aus.social 10
beige.party 10
mathstodon.xyz 9
masto.ai 8
mastodon.uno 7
libera.site 7
hachyderm.io 7
universeodon.com 7
mastodon.green 7
troet.cafe 6
pixelfed.cz 6
mastodon.art 6
...

Of course, my case is language-specific (.cz). Still, around 20% of followers come from mastodon.social.

Show threadJonDec 9

In terms of MAU (monthly active users), mastodon.social is currently around 39% of total Mastodon users -- up from 17.5% in May 2023.

@shadowdancer @jwz

Show threadChao-c'Dec 9
@jdp23 this may change with federation of replies. Like, in the case of this specific dicussion :-) @shadowdancer @jwz
Show threadJonDec 9

Better federation of replies is certainly a big plus and makes things much better on smaller instances! But the increased centralization on mastodon.social is more because that's the default signup in the app (and joinmastodon.social site) -- and migration is enough of a pain (including losing your posting history) that most people either stay there or leave fedi instead of trying to find another alternative.

@xChaos @shadowdancer @jwz

Show threadChao-c'Dec 9

@jdp23 yes, I recently tried to introduce one local journalist to koncept of replacing the less and less reliable corporate social media by Mastodon and the first think he did was... registering an account on Mastodon.social, of course.

Something should be done about this, because lot of confused users end on mastodon.social. But the next logical step, after federation of replies, is a way to allowing publicly followable lists, which can be shared in timeline. The Mastodon landscape would change overnight.

Show threadJonDec 9

@xChaos that would be useful! hopefully the work Mastodon is doing on Packs is a step in this direction.

The good news is that people are generally aware of the need to do something about the centralizing trend -- including Mastodon's new CEO and community lead. So hopefully things will improve over time!

Show threadLudovic :Firefox: :FreeBSD:Dec 9
@jwz @dnalounge I find Yahoo still very high
Show threadRoadskater, Ph.D.Dec 9
@usul @jwz @dnalounge Because I use one particular Yahoo service, so I might actually have a yahoo.com email address. Absolutely have never used it anywhere since they divested Flickr. I think the inbox usually full of spam from Yahoo.
Show threadLudovic :Firefox: :FreeBSD:Dec 9
@roadskater @jwz @dnalounge same here
Show threadMartinDec 9
@[email protected]
Did you comb through your mail logs or how did you gather those statistics?
My logs don't live long enough, but maybe I could get something out of rspamd. šŸ¤”
@[email protected]
Show threadjwzDec 9
@martin @dnalounge Email addresses entered with purchases.
Show threadSteinar BangDec 9
I am rooting for the 5.8%!
Show threadD2Dec 9
@jwz @dnalounge I mean, anti spam frameworks and configs have some orgs refusing self-adminned senders. Businesses may not themselves be in a walled garden, but they hire ā€˜servicesā€™ blacklisting promiscuously.
Show threadslashDec 9
@cascheranno @jwz @dnalounge I've been expecting that, at some point, the Big 5 would simply stop accepting email from anyone but themselves. Seems like the natural progression of the Internet.
Show threadRĆ¢u Cao āš”Dec 9

@jwz GMail's global usage dropped from ~60% in 2022 to ~43% in 2024. And these days, most of the people I know are on smaller providers, if they don't run their own server.

Being able to use your own server or choose from thousands of providers, for something that is accepted and used almost universally on the entire Internet, is obviously still a massive success story. And the size of some of the providers doesn't change that.

Show threadEllis šŸŒ šŸ• šŸ’šDec 9

@jwz @dnalounge
@xs4me2

Helaas voor div dingen nog google account nodig zoals bv voor huidige telefoon en you tube (kan ik daar dingen kijken als ik later geen gmail meer heb?)

Nu heb ik Fairphone 4, wil graag de nieuwe eos googlevrij om van Google af te komen, usa vrij te zijn
IG FB zijn weg, ben nu hier + Pixelfed o.a.

Ben bang voor valkuilen omdat ik m'n eigen werkwijze ken šŸ˜‰, bang dat ik fouten maak waardoor Fp6 eos niet 'zuiver' blijft
Als ik die nwe koop waar moet ik dan op letten?

Show threadSebbazDec 9

@jwz @dnalounge

Some stats from a list mail delivery in France : https://listes.comptoir.net/deliveryStatus/deliveryStats.html

33,58 % l.google.com
20,39 % olc.protection.outlook.com, mail.protection.outlook.com
10,03 % orange.fr
6,12 % mail.am0.yahoodns.net
2,60 % laposte.net
4,75 % ovh.net, mail.ovh.net
2,41 % free.fr
2,35 % tours-metropole.fr
1,92 % local sympa
1,85 % sfr.fr
13,99 % Others

Delivery status

Show postfix delivery stats

Show threadNantucket LitDec 9
@jwz @dnalounge AOL? Who knew my family were DNA Lounge fans?
Show threadJack Yan (ē”„ēˆµę©)Dec 9

@jwz @dnalounge When I see Gmail, I immediately think spam shop, since most of the addresses we block (over 90 per cent) are from there. It makes no sense to me that anyone would want to be on the same domain and be associated with spam. We wouldnŹ¼t pay for services from anyone pitching from Gmail, either.
Not to mention the obvious privacy hole where other people can read your emails.

https://jackyan.com/blog/2024/04/when-the-earliest-gmail-accounts-receive-emails-destined-for-others/

When the earliest Gmail accounts receive emails destined for others

Note: this was originally at the tail end of another post, but given its significance, it deserved to be its own post.   Who knew that Fesshole would help bring up this issue again?     Google bros all say this is impossible, or they blame the user, which is usually the case with Google

Jack Yan: the Persuader Blog
Show threadFabio ManganielloDec 9

@jwz @dnalounge a mail server isnā€™t so hard to self-host (and I run my own).

But Google and Microsoft have made damn sure that running your own mail server while also relaying emails reliably to accounts on their servers is a nightmare - and called them ā€œantispam measuresā€.

The entry barriers are so high that only persistent geeks keep pushing (and I still have to relay most of my emails through an external SMTP just to make sure that they get delivered to Microsoft). Everyone else was happy to stick on Microsoftā€™s or Googleā€™s servers. It should just be a matter of securing access to the server, adding the right SPF, DMARC and DKIM records to the DNS, show for a bit that youā€™re a good citizen on the Internet and you donā€™t end up on Spamhaus, and you should be able to send emails. But those two actors (especially Microsoft) have created such a maze of invisible checks that very few bother to navigate.

Btw your stats miss something even more alarming: that itā€™s likely that a big chunk of those in that 5-6% ā€œotherā€ bucket still use Google or Microsoft - just with a custom mail domain still hosted on their boxes.

Show threadLoĆÆsDec 9
@jwz @dnalounge but still, you can set up your own server and communicate with others (okay, with some ... minors drawback)
Show threadDavid SchmidtDec 9
@jwz @dnalounge Not everything is driven by repression and power. Sometimes it's simply the better service. Even if that sounds like manufacturer rhetoric.
Show threadjwzDec 9
@individual8 Yes, yes, gmail became the hegemon in our frictionless meritocracy because it was the best of all possible products. This underdog lifted itself up by its bootstraps and won in the Marketplace of Ideas. Surely no other influences were at play. You are very smart.
Show threadDavid SchmidtDec 9

@jwz Nobody gets forced to use Gmail. It got primarily popular by its outstanding spam protection.

Please explain exactly what you are accusing Gmail of. Otherwise it's difficult to discuss.

Show threadLife is TetrisDec 9
@individual8
Not the OP, but I do wonder if filtering spam is easier for them, being the primary spam generator.
Show threadDavid SchmidtDec 9
@tetrislife Any prove for that? I doubt that the main source of spam stems from Gmail. I'd rather suspect distributed systems.
Show threadjwzDec 9
@individual8 No, I don't owe you an explanation of anything. Go cape for monopolies and sealion someone else.
Show threadDibsDec 9
@jwz @dnalounge People still use Yahoo!?
Show threadRoelofDec 9

@dtwx @jwz @dnalounge This triggered me. My ancient yahoo account let me login, even the 2fa worked. It created a new mailbox for me because, I did not use it for a long time.

Probably forget it again (but as long as my keepass remembers the account, I might occasionally try if it is still there, like today šŸ˜‚ .

Show threadKerplunkDec 9

@jwz @dnalounge

Today in Email Hegemony.

Here are the 2025 top ten domains from orders placed on the @dnalounge store. Remember this the next time someone uses email as an example of a federation success story.
73.0% gmail.com

Never used gmail never will.

I do not even like to answer any mail coming from googles spyware domain

Show threadrichhDec 9

@jwz

As a slightly cheerier note, it's *slightly* more distributed outside the US, mostly thanks to the lingering effects of ISP email. I'm Membership Secretary for a small sports group (~70 members) and our mailing list is dominated by US providers, but no single provider has more than 20%:

* 18.1% Gmail
* 13.8% Yahoo (.co.uk and .com)
* 13.8% M$ (Mostly hotmail, also outlook. and live.)
* 11.7% BTInternet
* 8.5% AOL (yeah, really)
* 5.3% iCloud/mac.com
* 4.3% Sky
* 2% Protonmail
* 2% Talktalk
* ~21% everything else

A couple of the remainder are personal/work domains on M365, but there's also a gmx.com and some legit indy stuff (email attached to web hosting in cpanel).

I suspect outside the Anglosphere there are a lot of local alts as well - orange in France, GMX in Germany, etc. Heck, the Germans have their whole own version of Linkedin (xing.com), which is big through Germany, Austria & Switzerland.