I have learned that Luna has joined the Freedesktop Discord. People expressed feeling unsafe, but the admin shut down discussion immediately.

Luna has been passing around screenshots where an unidentified FDo CoC team member discusses banning me with her, and states that they have "a plan" [to deal with me].

I'm at my wit's end here. I have no idea how it's come to this. I feel like nobody in the Linux graphics/desktop community stood up for me as Luna manipulated and brainwashed people one by one. I will be removing myself from all FDo spaces entirely, including no longer contributing to any FDo-managed projects in any way.

I'm sorry. I can't do this any more.

Context: https://asahilina.net/luna-abuse

I should add: Karol, the FDo CoC member shown in the first image, sponsors Luna on GitHub Sponsors.

FDo CoC just emailed me.

I *did* contact a CoC member about this recently. And she refused to answer any questions or clarify anything. And now they're acting like "we can all just get along".

Luna is an abuser, and I will not be engaging with nor interacting with FDo while they support her, which includes financial sponsorship by a literal CoC member. CoC members are saying one thing to me and then supporting Luna in private, as well as saying they believe her false accusations to others.

Sorry, I'm tired of this constant playing of both sides. Please leave me alone. This community is toxic to me.

"It's a personal matter"

She doxxed me and has been harassing me for two years. People have been banned from FDo for much less. People with actual contributions to FDo, which Luna has none.

This is insane.

You know it's beyond weird when I have people asking me "Are you SURE this is from FDo? Have you checked the email headers?"

Yeah. I checked. DKIM pass from lists.freedesktop.org. They used an anonymous CoC sender list as From: this time (previously when CoC emailed me it was individuals, but I guess they're going for "CoC as a whole" now).

The CoC person who I contacted about this entire thing recently just confirmed they were involved in writing the email last night. So they were indeed aware I *did* try to talk to them about all this, yet still managed to send me an email implying I didn't and they're "disappointed".

Okay.

Re-sharing this reply in the thread for visibility. This is how CoC teams fail. It's hard.

https://infosec.exchange/@david_chisnall/115433845704182344

This is amazing content. Please boost.

David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*) (@[email protected])

@[email protected] @[email protected] I can’t speak for fd.o, but I was in a leadership position on another project where we got a similar case disastrously wrong, so I might be able to illuminate how that happens. The first mistake we made was not to differentiate harassment from conflict resolution. Most of the issues we had between contributors were personality clashes or technical disagreements that escalated. As you say, most of these have both parties acting in good faith. The main thing that the project needs to do is deescalate and get the people involved to talk again. This is absolutely the wrong approach in cases of harassment. There were two key causes of this: First, (as you mentioned) no one involved had any formal (or, in most cases, informal) training in how to deal with harassment. Most employers offer this, but it’s rarely compulsory. After the initial incident, I signed up for this training with my employer (as did another colleague involved with the same project). This highlighted some of the things we did wrong, but it was quite illuminating who was there: we were the only men on the course who were there voluntarily. Most of the people were women who were there because they had been targets of harassment or bullying and wanted to understand the processes better. The rest were men who had been forced to take the training because they had been accused of harassment (and, from a lot of their comments, I suspect had been engaged in it long term). Most F/OSS (or other community-led) projects don’t have any formal structure for providing this kind of training. And the work-provided training wasn’t sufficient. There were a bunch of ‘and this is where you need to escalate it to HR specialists (or the police)’ moments, but volunteer projects don’t have those experts. One of the biggest things a F/OSS charity could do to improve the situation would be to hire real experts that projects can use as consultants. Companies that back projects could help out be loaning HR as well as engineers to the projects. Second, we had very poor visibility into what happened. There’s a natural tendency for humans to trust the first person who explains a situation. In our case, it was made worse because the only thing that happened on project infrastructure (and so the thing that we saw) was an IRC exchange where one project member connected and had a go at another member then left. We didn’t see the backstory, which involved a load of gamergate nonsense on Twitter and elsewhere (and those of us not in the Twitterverse had only a very vague idea of what Gamergate was. I thought it was a handful of people who were upset some game they didn’t like won an award, I had no idea that it was a coordinated harassment campaign). When a lot of the things that happened are private messages, or in non-project spaces, it’s hard to know what the real context is. We saw a load of things quoted out of context that made both people look bad. We also had friends of both people jumping in and defending them and attacking the other. It really takes *weeks* of investigation to properly handle this kind of thing and dig to the truth. And this compounds the problem of the people dealing with it not having the right training. And, unless they are employees of a foundation backing the project, they also lack the time to do a good job. And, again, the assumption that people are basically decent (which is normally valid) hurts when one of the people is not and is actively trying to subvert the process. The evidence from an honest person reporting what happened and a dishonest person cherry-picking out-of-context comments will look very similar. Unless you personally know the people involved (which brings its own problems of bias) then it’s very hard to work out who is telling the truth. This is even harder when one or both people involved are highly visible in the community, because they will both be publicly sharing a narrative and one is mostly accurate (but only mostly: no one is 100% objective when they’re being personally attacked) while the other is a carefully crafted fabrication, but there’s pressure to respond quickly because both are public and the community is full of people who believe either one and are complaining. In the last few years, the problem has become worse. A lot of CoC complaints now are malicious. Far-right folks absolutely love baiting people into saying things that look bad when quoted out of context, then deleting the context and reporting the remark. They make a game out of trying to get people kicked out of projects. So the workload has gone up, which compounds the other problems. I wish I had a good answer for how to improve this.

Infosec Exchange
@lina this has been such a sad turn of events, i'm sorry it keeps dragging on
@lina Why do CoC members usually seem to add to troubles... People are just people, and is fine that they're not perfect at all. I think CoC exists to steer people towards a unified goal peacefully, no matter gender, race, or stuff, and cooperate for that goal. But it's increasingly going opposite😇
Maybe should fight for rights in CoC, or else others would take 'em. Politics that is.😅

@commdserv CoC is fine as a concept... the issue here seems to be that, as far as I can tell, FDo CoC is all volunteers with no formal training or qualifications other than "seem to be good members of the community that someone else trusts". That works for the easy CoC cases... but not the hard ones.

Source: I was once invited to join the CoC team in the past, before all this...

@lina @commdserv

I can’t speak for fd.o, but I was in a leadership position on another project where we got a similar case disastrously wrong, so I might be able to illuminate how that happens.

The first mistake we made was not to differentiate harassment from conflict resolution. Most of the issues we had between contributors were personality clashes or technical disagreements that escalated. As you say, most of these have both parties acting in good faith. The main thing that the project needs to do is deescalate and get the people involved to talk again. This is absolutely the wrong approach in cases of harassment. There were two key causes of this:

First, (as you mentioned) no one involved had any formal (or, in most cases, informal) training in how to deal with harassment. Most employers offer this, but it’s rarely compulsory. After the initial incident, I signed up for this training with my employer (as did another colleague involved with the same project). This highlighted some of the things we did wrong, but it was quite illuminating who was there: we were the only men on the course who were there voluntarily. Most of the people were women who were there because they had been targets of harassment or bullying and wanted to understand the processes better. The rest were men who had been forced to take the training because they had been accused of harassment (and, from a lot of their comments, I suspect had been engaged in it long term).

Most F/OSS (or other community-led) projects don’t have any formal structure for providing this kind of training. And the work-provided training wasn’t sufficient. There were a bunch of ‘and this is where you need to escalate it to HR specialists (or the police)’ moments, but volunteer projects don’t have those experts. One of the biggest things a F/OSS charity could do to improve the situation would be to hire real experts that projects can use as consultants. Companies that back projects could help out be loaning HR as well as engineers to the projects.

Second, we had very poor visibility into what happened. There’s a natural tendency for humans to trust the first person who explains a situation. In our case, it was made worse because the only thing that happened on project infrastructure (and so the thing that we saw) was an IRC exchange where one project member connected and had a go at another member then left. We didn’t see the backstory, which involved a load of gamergate nonsense on Twitter and elsewhere (and those of us not in the Twitterverse had only a very vague idea of what Gamergate was. I thought it was a handful of people who were upset some game they didn’t like won an award, I had no idea that it was a coordinated harassment campaign). When a lot of the things that happened are private messages, or in non-project spaces, it’s hard to know what the real context is. We saw a load of things quoted out of context that made both people look bad. We also had friends of both people jumping in and defending them and attacking the other.

It really takes weeks of investigation to properly handle this kind of thing and dig to the truth. And this compounds the problem of the people dealing with it not having the right training. And, unless they are employees of a foundation backing the project, they also lack the time to do a good job. And, again, the assumption that people are basically decent (which is normally valid) hurts when one of the people is not and is actively trying to subvert the process. The evidence from an honest person reporting what happened and a dishonest person cherry-picking out-of-context comments will look very similar. Unless you personally know the people involved (which brings its own problems of bias) then it’s very hard to work out who is telling the truth. This is even harder when one or both people involved are highly visible in the community, because they will both be publicly sharing a narrative and one is mostly accurate (but only mostly: no one is 100% objective when they’re being personally attacked) while the other is a carefully crafted fabrication, but there’s pressure to respond quickly because both are public and the community is full of people who believe either one and are complaining.

In the last few years, the problem has become worse. A lot of CoC complaints now are malicious. Far-right folks absolutely love baiting people into saying things that look bad when quoted out of context, then deleting the context and reporting the remark. They make a game out of trying to get people kicked out of projects. So the workload has gone up, which compounds the other problems.

I wish I had a good answer for how to improve this.

@david_chisnall I found the experience of doing fediverse moderation in many regards similar. Now, in some ways it was easier, because most receipts are of public messages so you can go and read them in context; but that doesn't mean they're not presented to you in decontextualised screenshots that make you dig out the original posts the hard way nor does it mean that even the threads are full context.

And in the end you have to make value judgements like how much leeway to grant people who did things you'd consider normally bannable while being targeted by a harassment campaign

Never mind dealing with cases of grooming. At least an open source project CoC team will probably never have to deal with that

In the end I came to have a very dim view on the ability of most people to effectively moderate and not unwittingly become the enforcers of organised ostracism campaigns.
And just for clarity: none of the above is with any prejudice to the situation in the aforementioned case because I quite frankly have not done enough digging and suspect it is not actually possible to gather enough information to render a reasonable and fair judgement
@david_chisnall Treating harassment like a conflict that should be negotiated is _such_ a common failure mode, and it is essentially impossible to explain to someone as they are falling into that trap.
@david_chisnall Jen was dealing with a colleague harassing her and very transparently interfering with her practice early in her career, and hospital leadership’s solution was to make both of them take conflict resolution classes. It was absolutely infuriating.

@steve @david_chisnall

Frustrating thing is often times, a conflict does have one of the people in the wrong, or sometimes even both. When you're a moderator, treating everything as no-fault is just laziness. Same bullshit as the "Zero-tolerance" school bullying policies where they just punish everyone involved regardless of fault.

@steve @david_chisnall arguably it's even the SOP for most of media/commentators, which probably doesn't help the lay-person navigate things
@david_chisnall @lina @commdserv as a victim of similar harassment in another community, it makes me feel a *little* better to understand how CoC and moderation had failed so hard. i am always torn between wanting to preemptively warn people about my harassers, because it’s kind of a huge social burden on others to have that follow you everywhere.
@david_chisnall thank you for writing this! It’s a very good, accessible explanation of how things fail.

@david_chisnall @lina @commdserv I wanted to write more about this whole mess, but this covers nearly every thing I could say other than:

In my opinion, part of what foundations should provide to projects is a HR and "conflict resolution" function, i.e. have paid, trained, neutral, non-project people who can handle the HR stuff of people working together and also help deal with CoC violations and other interpersonal conflicts within the project space.

And that the agreements with projects should be set up so that projects are required to use these services.

I feel that a not-insigificant part of the issues people have with CoC enforcement are due to the people involved either being too close to the problem or lacking the skills required.

@juliancalaby @david_chisnall @lina @commdserv Exactly! This is something that needs to be handled by professionals, not by random people who are trusted.

@david_chisnall @lina @commdserv

Far-right folks absolutely love baiting people into saying things that look bad when quoted out of context, then deleting the context and reporting the remark. They make a game out of trying to get people kicked out of projectsAre you sure about it being specifically "far-right folks" doing this?

@tyil @lina @david_chisnall @commdserv
Imagine in Discord:

> A: Hey, how many eggs in this box [Image: box with 12 eggs)
> B: 12 ig
*A: removes the image*
*A: edits the message, to "How old are you?"*
*A: Report to Discord as underage.*
*at Discord moderation team: Age of 12?? This is insane, banned for sure**

@CyanChanges @lina @david_chisnall @commdserv Nobody sane uses Discord, luckily.

In most (free/open) software projects however, I see CoCs being pushed by left-wing people, who then immediately start abusing the purposely vague language to get rid of those they don't like. Even if the people in question keep their political ideology out of the projects, they will hunt people down on other places and use that as justification to get rid of them from a project.

I'm not saying "far right" people don't
also do this stuff nowadays, but trying to paint a picture where somehow everyone who does "the wrong thing" just so happen to also be of "the wrong political leaning" seems very disingenuous.

@david_chisnall @lina @commdserv the Python Software Foundation has jumped in to enforcement with both feet, with no credible attempts to take any other actions than excluding community members. It’s sad to see an organisation one worked hard for go so wrong so quickly.

The Code of Conduct is enforced by a self-appointed group. The only way to get on it is to be approved by the other members - a recipe for groupthink and intolerance.

@holdenweb @david_chisnall @commdserv Please keep in mind that this isn't about ideology or community values and their general enforcement.

The issue here is a CoC team utterly failing to uphold its stated and intended values due to lack of training and qualifications. I don't disagree with what the FDo CoC team *wants* to do, they're just terrible at it, to the point their incompetence is an active liability to the community.

This is a distinct issue to governance and representation issues.

@lina @commdserv I actually wonder if CoC should be handled by dedicated professionals who do the work full-time.

It would mean paying a third party for the work, which is really bad and has horrible risks, but it would mean the work is done by experienced people.

@alwayscurious @commdserv Yeah, see this excellent post:

https://infosec.exchange/@david_chisnall/115433845704182344

At the very least, there should be training for CoC and similar positions.

David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*) (@[email protected])

@[email protected] @[email protected] I can’t speak for fd.o, but I was in a leadership position on another project where we got a similar case disastrously wrong, so I might be able to illuminate how that happens. The first mistake we made was not to differentiate harassment from conflict resolution. Most of the issues we had between contributors were personality clashes or technical disagreements that escalated. As you say, most of these have both parties acting in good faith. The main thing that the project needs to do is deescalate and get the people involved to talk again. This is absolutely the wrong approach in cases of harassment. There were two key causes of this: First, (as you mentioned) no one involved had any formal (or, in most cases, informal) training in how to deal with harassment. Most employers offer this, but it’s rarely compulsory. After the initial incident, I signed up for this training with my employer (as did another colleague involved with the same project). This highlighted some of the things we did wrong, but it was quite illuminating who was there: we were the only men on the course who were there voluntarily. Most of the people were women who were there because they had been targets of harassment or bullying and wanted to understand the processes better. The rest were men who had been forced to take the training because they had been accused of harassment (and, from a lot of their comments, I suspect had been engaged in it long term). Most F/OSS (or other community-led) projects don’t have any formal structure for providing this kind of training. And the work-provided training wasn’t sufficient. There were a bunch of ‘and this is where you need to escalate it to HR specialists (or the police)’ moments, but volunteer projects don’t have those experts. One of the biggest things a F/OSS charity could do to improve the situation would be to hire real experts that projects can use as consultants. Companies that back projects could help out be loaning HR as well as engineers to the projects. Second, we had very poor visibility into what happened. There’s a natural tendency for humans to trust the first person who explains a situation. In our case, it was made worse because the only thing that happened on project infrastructure (and so the thing that we saw) was an IRC exchange where one project member connected and had a go at another member then left. We didn’t see the backstory, which involved a load of gamergate nonsense on Twitter and elsewhere (and those of us not in the Twitterverse had only a very vague idea of what Gamergate was. I thought it was a handful of people who were upset some game they didn’t like won an award, I had no idea that it was a coordinated harassment campaign). When a lot of the things that happened are private messages, or in non-project spaces, it’s hard to know what the real context is. We saw a load of things quoted out of context that made both people look bad. We also had friends of both people jumping in and defending them and attacking the other. It really takes *weeks* of investigation to properly handle this kind of thing and dig to the truth. And this compounds the problem of the people dealing with it not having the right training. And, unless they are employees of a foundation backing the project, they also lack the time to do a good job. And, again, the assumption that people are basically decent (which is normally valid) hurts when one of the people is not and is actively trying to subvert the process. The evidence from an honest person reporting what happened and a dishonest person cherry-picking out-of-context comments will look very similar. Unless you personally know the people involved (which brings its own problems of bias) then it’s very hard to work out who is telling the truth. This is even harder when one or both people involved are highly visible in the community, because they will both be publicly sharing a narrative and one is mostly accurate (but only mostly: no one is 100% objective when they’re being personally attacked) while the other is a carefully crafted fabrication, but there’s pressure to respond quickly because both are public and the community is full of people who believe either one and are complaining. In the last few years, the problem has become worse. A lot of CoC complaints now are malicious. Far-right folks absolutely love baiting people into saying things that look bad when quoted out of context, then deleting the context and reporting the remark. They make a game out of trying to get people kicked out of projects. So the workload has gone up, which compounds the other problems. I wish I had a good answer for how to improve this.

Infosec Exchange
@lina @commdserv The only group of people I can think of who might be able to recognize this form of abuse without special training are those who have themselves been its victims. Experience is a harsh teacher.

@lina @commdserv I think another part of the problem is that this is all happening online. If it happened in-person, I wonder if it would be much more obvious who was right and who was wrong.

The Internet is both a blessing and a curse.

@lina it's unadulterated self-interest; they've calculated that they stand to lose more by becoming a target of Luna's ire than yours. Whether that's because they believe more people support Luna than you, or something else, it's always a matter of self-interest in these situations.

Same reason so many people have caved to pressure from the current US administration. 🤷‍♀️

I'm so sorry you continue to deal with this bullshit :(

@neatchee I don't think it's that. Luna has just successfully brainwashed enough people in that team. She targets people she can traumabond with.

You have to look at this with a less cynical lens. All these people, Luna included, actually think they're doing "the right thing". Luna manipulates everyone, including herself.

@lina

you have to look at this with a less cynical lens

..... Does not compute. Cynicism is all I've ever known 😬

@lina "we're sorry *you* fucked up" is a hell of an email to receive  
@lina omg what kind of email is this, if they have something to say sorry about then they should do and stop there, and definitely not start blaming you
@lina what a strange response, even a LLM could write something more thought out than this (which should say something)
@lina politician-esque nothingburger response. disgusting

sounds like they're more upset over the bad press than anything
@lina this reeks of centro-fascist both-sidesing idiocy

@soop And yet all these people are pretty much leftists!

The mind boggles.

@lina @soop a different kind of both-sides
@lina They are disappointed by your post? Not by Luna, who shares a private conversation with CoC around, but you who reacts to it? Wow.
@lina damn I thought karol was chill :(
@alissx Me too, but... he lets himself fall into trauma bonding traps...

@lina once there is any sort of personal connection to any of the parties involved, 3rd parties/external help should immediately be involved imo. the fact that this wasnt done is informative and disappointing

also i hope u are noting all this down and sending it to ur lawyer for litigation

@Logical_Error My understanding is Karol had recused himself from the whole investigation for this reason. This was obviously not truthful in hindsight.
@lina I'm sorry you have to go through this ​

@lina Oh shit, that sucks. That's a lot of places that are now not safe.

Really hope the situation stops chasing you... And disappointing to hear how people are handling this. Really wish more projects would just let you exist, and not listen to harassment, sigh.

@lina this continues to be just such an abject failure of any sort of moderation in these projects

It absolutely boggles my mind. I am so sorry. 🫂

@lina why are they treating your deadname as if its a headmate or something.. and then also simultaneously saying its the same person as you, but then referring to it as if its a different person with a different identity, specifically for the purposes of doing misgendering

like even the way you have handled this is like pretty good, you haven't been like 'revenge now' or whatever retribution bullshit, its literally just 'please leave me alone' or whatever, tbh

.. and like i can understand if someone distancing themselves from you or going no-contact or whatever causes you to feel somewhat isolated, but like what the f- is all this other shit

@lina

"there's a risk of people falling for the abuser's manipulation" proceeds to gaslight the very existence of the abuse, as the abuser would

@lina girl I’m so sorry this is happening to you. Transphobia, body normativity, and made up drama often go well together and some people really deal with their shit by attempting to ruin other people’s lives. Is there anything that could be done on an individual level? I had to deal with such attempts at smearing before it’s really a pain. A 5 minutes lie on their side takes so much effort to disprove. xoxo
@lina A thing that's particularly bad to my eyes is that at least one of the people involved in this is active on the fediverse and could have easily come in here and - if it was a misunderstanding - quickly cleared this up.