Doug WilsonNov 12

As a (now former) employee of Monotype, and someone who has been around the type industry for 20 years, I have been having many of the same thoughts that @flaviazim expresses here.

I can feel something changing, but what is it?

https://contraforma.substack.com/p/can-we-still-build-a-future-in-type

Can We Still Build a Future in Type?

An insider's look at the future of type design amid corporate consolidation, AI, and cultural volatility—and why collaboration and shared infrastructure might be the only path forward.

Contraforma
Show threadFlavia Zimbardi
@onpaperwings it's both comforting and quite scary to know I am not imagining things—especially considering your experience and inside view. but I truly hope we can open more conversations and find some answers together.
Nov 12 at 5:30pmWeb
Show threadthierryblancpainNov 13

@flaviazim @onpaperwings Might very much just be me but to me the industry feels okay (*), it’s the world that makes it all feel that way.

*within boundaries. The huge influx of people and foundries definitely seems to have made it a lot harder for newcomers. We were extremely lucky to start in 2009.

Show threadthierryblancpainNov 13
@flaviazim @onpaperwings Very open to the possibility that Grilli’s place in the industry is blinding me. I do very much agree that distribution is the key, which is why I always encourage people to start their own thing if they’re the kind of person who can and wants to do everything associated with doing that.
Show threadDoug WilsonNov 13

@thierryblancpain @flaviazim I’ve always admired how Grilli built your own thing from the beginning and from my point of view, it seems like it has been a successful model and you have enough of a following that you can continue to do your own thing.

As a new type designer just coming up though, building a following and a “brand” when you are competing with hundreds (thousands?) of other people in the exact same position seems daunting at best and unsustainable at worst.

Show threadthierryblancpainNov 13
@onpaperwings @flaviazim Absolutely understandable! I guess for us, back then, it felt like a daunting and pretty unsurmountable challenge, too—that’s maybe what informs my (surely rather limited) POV. But it’s certainly the case that we compared ourselves with established foundries (think Lineto, Optimo, etc.) back then, and not 500 other new foundries. Different times for sure!
Show threadFlavia ZimbardiNov 13
@thierryblancpain @onpaperwings yes! that's my point exactly: "it’s turbulence in every direction, all at once". and feels like whoever is entering the industry now may have possibly "missed the boat"? I personally—someone who's somewhat in between (?) with a little skin in the game—still consider building a foundry in 2025 crazy exhausting and far from guaranteed.
Show threadKris SowersbyNov 17
@flaviazim @thierryblancpain @onpaperwings On the flip side, building a foundry has never been easier than before… 
Show threadFlavia ZimbardiNov 17
@klim @thierryblancpain @onpaperwings true. technically easier. economically/structurally harder.
Show threadKris SowersbyNov 17
@flaviazim @thierryblancpain @onpaperwings How is it harder structurally? I understand economically…
Show threadFlavia ZimbardiNov 17
@klim @thierryblancpain @onpaperwings they feed each other, but I'd say structurally ties to what @swanktype and Doug were discussing in parallel: distribution controlled by giants, no middle market, systems built for scale over craft.
Show threadthierryblancpainNov 17

@flaviazim @klim @onpaperwings @swanktype How do you feel that’s different from… let’s say 2010? Genuinely curious, not combative :)

To me it seems like for each 10+ people foundry that sold to Monotype there’s probably a new one of that size (think Dinamo, PP, GT, etc.)

Show threadDoug WilsonNov 17

@thierryblancpain @flaviazim @klim @swanktype For sure there are some 10+ people type foundries, but personally I feel there are fewer and fewer. I don't know exactly when those foundries you mentioned started, but I'm curious if there are any that have started since 2020 that have grown? (genuinely don't know)

And the massive gap from 10–40 people foundries and the 1,200+ people Monotype to me shows me the "middle" still isn't really a thing.

Show threadFlavia ZimbardiNov 17
@onpaperwings @thierryblancpain @klim @swanktype agreed. the gap widened. 2010 was a different landscape. Google alone shifted things massively post-2019. I also don't know many that started in the last 5 years and scaled... maybe Nan?
Show threadthierryblancpainNov 17
@flaviazim @onpaperwings @klim @swanktype Seems important to point out that lot of foundries have a slower growth curve than what you’d associate with a successful software business due to bootstrapping vs outside capital. GT went from 3 -> 4 people in 2018, for example, officially our 9th year in existence. Lots of people don’t want to grow in headcount, I certainly don’t ever want to get to DM’s size.
Show threadDoug WilsonNov 17
@thierryblancpain @flaviazim @klim @swanktype Oh, for sure and I respect the hell out of people that can keep things small.
Show threadRutherford CrazeNov 17

@flaviazim @klim @thierryblancpain @onpaperwings @swanktype I have to say that ‘scale over craft’ point feels especially true.

The channels where people discover fonts (social media particularly) require constant new “content”. The single hardest thing in my experience has been building enough of an audience to step off that treadmill and focus on everything else (like making better fonts)

Show threadJTD TypeNov 17
@mass_driver @flaviazim @klim @thierryblancpain @onpaperwings @swanktype I guess at this point I’ve been around long enough to be considered established. I feel like my foundry has always been a bit “under the radar” and never really made it into the zeitgeist in any way but I’m still able to make a living. Don’t compare yourself to any other foundry—just do your thing. (1/2)
Show threadJTD TypeNov 17
I gave up on social media. Pretty much most every large sale or custom project has come from someone I’ve met in person or a referral from someone I’ve met in person. There’s space for everyone—you just have to connect with art directors and designers in real life. (2/2)
Show threadKris SowersbyNov 18

@flaviazim @thierryblancpain @onpaperwings @swanktype I wonder if there’s ever been a “middle market”. Seems like there’s either small foundries or large distributors. Digital foundries with 10+ staff are historically rare?

“Built for scale not craft” hits pretty true, damn

Show threadDoug WilsonNov 13

@thierryblancpain @flaviazim thanks for sharing your point of view. The world certainly feels messed up right now.

Yeah, the industry is certainly different than 15 years ago with a huge influx of new designers. I just fear there isn’t actually an industry for all these graduates and talented designers to work inside.

Show threadGraeme SwankNov 15
@onpaperwings @thierryblancpain @flaviazim
I think the truism of “There’s always room for one more” can be applied. But I think there are other concerns for newer designers that is more market based. In a broad sense, for smaller one person foundries, we are essentially local businesses operating in a global marketplace that favors larger entities. Then there’s two issues I see, one that has happened and one that is in the near future (not AI)
Show threadGraeme SwankNov 15
@onpaperwings @thierryblancpain @flaviazim
The first is that font license prices over time have not kept pace with CPI or cost of living, meaning that fonts now are deeply discounted. I have some data I have analyzed on that, but I would like to have more data points.
Show threadGraeme SwankNov 15
@onpaperwings @thierryblancpain @flaviazim
But, if discounted fonts due to inflation is real, then I would think that favors established stakeholders (as they have more of a library, more capital, etc.) and can bear that cost more than someone starting out. To compound the problem, they’re generally the ones setting the going rate (setting aside Google, MT, Adobe, etc.).
Show threadGraeme SwankNov 15

@onpaperwings @thierryblancpain @flaviazim
The second is what happens when legacy indie foundries start to reach retirement age? Do they sell their IP? Do they give the foundry to employees? Something else? If it’s the first I think that would make it even harder to compete against.

Sorry for the stream of consciousness, I’ve been thinking on these structural things for a while, and I’m not sure how much of that is on point.

Show threadGraeme SwankNov 15
@onpaperwings @thierryblancpain @flaviazim
Also, if any foundries or designers who have been around since at least 2010, I’d love some help on historical pricing data if you’re willing to share. It’s hugely time consuming and not a given that anything will be there using the internet archive.
Show threadDoug WilsonNov 15

@swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim I agree on both points. I wish every type designer would agree to raise prices — I bought fonts over 15 years ago at $50 per style 🤯

And yes, there are multiple and the foundries that don’t want to keep making fonts into their 60s and 70s. But what can they do if they don’t want to sell to Monotype?

Show threadGraeme SwankNov 16

@onpaperwings @thierryblancpain @flaviazim On pricing it’s a bit of a prisoner’s dilemma, and then there’s also the different market segments.

I don’t even know what I’d do if I were in an older designer’s shoes either. There’s other entities to sell to, but a similar market outcome. Perhaps there’s some way to structure something else that takes the employees into account while having it remain independent, but that’s probably complicated.

Show threadlitherlandNov 17
@swanktype @onpaperwings @thierryblancpain @flaviazim They could go the Bob’s Red Mill route? https://www.bobsredmill.com/employee-owned
Employee Owned

At Bob's Red Mill, our mission is Inspiring Joy with Wholesome Foods. Explore baking flours, whole grains and more.

Bob's Red Mill Natural Foods
Show threadDoug WilsonNov 17
@litherland @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim Possibly — if there are employees, but those sorts of companies are very few and far-between. Specifically thinking of one-or-two-person companies — there is very little left of the “middle market” in the industry currently.
Show threadBen KielNov 18
@onpaperwings @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim
Show threadDoug WilsonNov 18
@benkiel @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim Hell, yes! My first type license I ever purchased, around 2005 or so?
Show threadKris SowersbyNov 18
@onpaperwings @benkiel @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim What was it Doug?
Show threadDoug WilsonNov 18
@klim @benkiel @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim Gotham as well.
Show threadKris SowersbyNov 18
@onpaperwings @benkiel @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim Mine was Tribute… I still have the printed specimen
Show threadBen KielNov 19
@onpaperwings @klim @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim oh, my first was Mrs. Eaves and Triplex Cond Black
Show threadErikNov 19
@benkiel @onpaperwings @klim @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim Base. Right after they opened their online shop.
Show threadKai BernauNov 19

@letterror @benkiel @onpaperwings @klim @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim
We’ve always had expensive taste I guess…

(We literally got our first credit card just for this.)

Show threadKris SowersbyNov 19
@kai @letterror @benkiel @onpaperwings @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim 2007! I didn’t realise Fenway was licensable! What did you use it for?
Show threadKai BernauNov 19

@klim 1. The first two editions of a book about semi-industrial Portuguese cakes;

2. A super cute little booklet with essays about the work of Walid Ra’ad, to accompany this: https://carvalho-bernau.com/scratching-on-things/ THAT NEVER GOT PRODUCED;

3. Another project that I can’t remember.

Not sure what to do with these PS1 files now.

Walid Raad – Scratching on Things — Carvalho Bernau

Show threadKris SowersbyNov 20
@kai crack open FL5 and convert to TTF
Show threadThomas PhinneyNov 20
@klim @kai I doubt that would have been permitted by the Carter & Cone license terms.
Show threadTiro TypeworksNov 20
@tphinney @klim @kai In the early 2000s, I made an OpenType version of Fenway to typeset the _Language Culture Type_ book for @atypi. That license was donated, though, and Maxim Zhukov arranged permission from Matthew to extend the character set for the book. Fun time.
Show threadFrank GrießhammerNov 19
@kai @letterror @benkiel @onpaperwings @klim @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim Interesting mix of fonts there
Show threadKai BernauNov 19
@frankrolf once you’re MC you don’t need to care anymore what your invoices look like.
Show threadKent LewNov 20
@frankrolf @kai @letterror @benkiel @onpaperwings @klim @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim Funny. In 2009, the invoice was all Charter, with Mantinia for letterhead. I think Cherie was doing them all by hand (and didn’t catch the stray tracking on the last address line). By 2007, maybe she was using business software and hadn’t managed to customize the template. 🤷‍♂️
Show threadKris SowersbyNov 20
@kentlew @frankrolf @kai @letterror @benkiel @onpaperwings @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim Does anyone know what the C&C wheel logo is?
Show threadErikNov 20
@klim @kentlew @frankrolf @kai @benkiel @onpaperwings @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim Maybe related to “Carter”?
Show threadDoug WilsonNov 20
@letterror @klim @kentlew @frankrolf @kai @benkiel @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim I've always wondered myself. If no one knows, I'm happy to ask Matthew directly.
Show threadKent LewNov 21
@onpaperwings @letterror @klim @frankrolf @kai @benkiel @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim Erik’s on the right track. I believe it’s a cart wheel.
Show threadlitherlandNov 20
@klim @thierryblancpain @benkiel @flaviazim @onpaperwings @swanktype My first was Mrs. Eaves 🙌
Show threadKent LewNov 18

@onpaperwings @benkiel @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim @klim Ha! I probably have my receipt for Gotham 1 up in the attic with the old tax documents. Not my first license, though. I have plenty of earlier licenses from HTF — Hoefler Text, Hoefler Titling, Requiem, the Allsorts, Knockout. (All orphaned PS T1 now. 😝)

I licensed from a lot of small/medium foundries back in the day — HTF, Emigre, House, FB, Stone, Storm, C&C, et al.

Licensing direct was more the thing before MyFonts.

Show threadKris SowersbyNov 18
@benkiel @onpaperwings @swanktype @thierryblancpain @flaviazim Mate that’s like $5,000 in today’s money!
Show threadKai BernauNov 19
@benkiel Wow just over 10 years ago huh?
Show threadFlorian HardwigNov 19
@kai @benkiel … and processed by a certain Mr. Darden.
Show threadBen KielNov 19
@fhardwig @kai because Jesse was on vacation
Show threadBen KielNov 19
@kai oh man I wish….
Show threadKris SowersbyNov 16
@swanktype @onpaperwings @thierryblancpain @flaviazim FWIW this is why I’m supporting Fontstand — I want it to become a place to care for fonts from those of us that will eventually retire.