Support for Windows 10 is ending next month, making it a great time to switch to Linux! There's no need to throw away your old computer. If you primarily use your machine for social media, shopping, or online banking, you can save money and help the environment.

Which distribution would you recommend? Mint or Ubuntu?

PS: For older computers, a lighter weight distribution might be a better choice so ch as Linux Mint XFCE or Lubuntu.

@nixCraft
And for those wanting simple stability, Linux Mint LMDE, not friggin unstable and unsupported apps.
@nixCraft NOTE: Ubuntu has corporate meddling from Canonical, and Linux Mint has transphobes on the team. Maybe try starting with Fedora.
@indigoviolet @nixCraft
Came here to say this. Fedora is great.
@indigoviolet @nixCraft got a source for the Mint thing? This is the first I'm hearing of it...
@indigoviolet @nixCraft
I JUST FOUND THAT OUT?! WHY I THOUGHT MINT WAS MY PERFECT DISTRO 💔💔
@nixCraft i would suggest Ubuntu, but that is only my personal opinion and the distro i am used to
@nixCraft *sigh* I wish people would stop recommending Linux as the be all end all. It's not, especially for those of us who use screen readers. We have to learn an entirely new operating system with various interfaces (choosing a desktop is part of it)a, plus a new screen reader, plus new programs and ways of installing and updating them, and that's assuming that the distribution even has Orca enabled or that it can easily be enabled at startup without sighted assistance. Even for the sighted, many can't just install it and go, as they probably have new things to learn as well. Yes, it's a good option, but it's not the only one, and it isn't as if Windows 10 will suddenly stop working or a hacker will wipe these computers overnight. XP and 7 both still work and both have modern browsers (Supermium and Serpent UXP) to use with them, so 10 most certainly does as well.

@dandylover1 if you’re looking for an experience where the screen reader is available right from the install page and you can get started without sighted assistance, maybe give elementary OS a spin! We’ve worked with blind folks over the last couple years to provide the first run experience that you’re seeking 😊

@nixCraft

@elementary @nixCraft Ooh! This is something new to me! Thank you! I will definitely research it. And thank you for truly caring about accessibility. This is a wonderful thing.
@elementary @nixCraft Okay. I just went to the site and this is a paid system with no demonstration version. Plus, I keep seeing advice not to install it in a virtual machine, which is precisely what I would do when testing any new system. Plus, it's heavy on resources and system specifications. I am using a Toughpad FZ-M1 MK3 which has a Core i5-7Y57 processor and 8gb of ram. This is perfect for Windows 11 plus DOS, XP or 7. This requires at least 4gb, and probably a higher processor. I don't have my more powerful desktop set up and even that has 8gb because I have never needed more.
@dandylover1 @elementary @nixCraft elementary will likely run ok on your machine. running it in a vm is fine to get a feel. elementary is pay-what-you-want, which does include the option to not pay! it's just a bit hidden.

we do not necessarily recommend elementary, however!
@dandylover1 @elementary @nixCraft all of that said, yes you will need to learn a new system, but that is in fact one potential price of moving away from windows.

@dandylover1 Pay-what-you-can does include 0 if you’re unable to pay, but we do rely on paid downloads to be able to pay for development and servers and all the other overhead costs we incur to provide our operating system.

You’ll have a better time installing directly on your hardware. Especially with screen reader use cases we’ve seen virtual machines introduce showstopping issues. But you also might have a perfectly acceptable experience. It’s unpredictable which is why we don’t recommend it

@dandylover1 your system specifications should probably be okay! There’s a built-in check to the installer itself which will warn you if for some reason that won’t quite work. But we overshoot a little on the recommendation to make sure that you’re getting an experience where things feel snappy and responsive and not having to wait or experience any jittering etc
@elementary This is very good to know.
@elementary I downloaded the latest stable version and tried to install it, but there is no speech, either automatically, when pressing alt+f2 and typing Orca, or when typing alt+Windows+s. Mind you, this is the same machine on which I just installed both Vinux and Accessible Coconut successfully as a test. Both are based on Ubuntu. The first is very old and the second is fairly modern. So I'm not sure what is going on here, but I know it's not my machine or VMWare. I'll try it on my laptop later, but I doubt it will work. This goes back to my original point about Linux, in general, often not being accessible. And since many people do install new operating systems in virtual machines before committing to them, if that really is the problem, then it's a very serious one indeed, particularly for those of us who rely on speech and need the drivers for it. Yes, one can boot from a usb, etc. but that is not always accessible, since the bios, boot screen, or whatever modern systems use, is not screen reader accessible, meaning that whatever system is loaded on the drive (in my case, Windows) will start automatically, unless we somehow stop it and then play with it for who knows how long, trying to figure out the boot order without speech. This is why virtual machines are so important.

@dandylover1 I’m sorry you had that experience! The Orca shortcut is configured as Super + Alt + S and you should have heard that read aloud to you after booting. I just got a message yesterday from someone that they heard the shortcut announcement and were able to install blind using the screen reader

If you have time, an issue report with all the details would be appreciated so developers can try to reproduce and fix the issue: https://docs.elementary.io/contributor-guide/feedback/reporting-issues

Reporting Issues | Contributor Guide

elementary uses GitHub to track issue reports and feature requests publicly. You can send feedback to the team to inform us of a problem you encountered or an improvement that you would like to see.

@elementary *I wrote this prior to reading your message just now.* I figured out what was going on! There were a few factors to consider. The first is that, when Elementary OS starts, there is a very brief spoken message that says something such as "to turn on the screen reader, press alt+super+s". Unlike in both vinux and Accessible Coconut (and even Debian, for that matter), Orca doesn't actually start with the system. So if someone misses that message, he may not know what to do. The second factor is my own silliness. I forgot that this keyboard is a little different from normal ones and I was hitting the wrong key for Windows (super). The installation itself was fairly standard but slightly more complicated than Accessible Coconut in that the latter chose the drive automatically once I hit "erase", and Elementary OS was a bit more verbose in explaining certain things. It didn't offer the option to update packages during installation, which is a feature that I actually like. However, since it has a much easier updating system than the commandline, I might not mind this as much. It also gave me a warning, saying that it might run slowly on my system, which I thought was a good thing, though I have never seen this in any other version of Linux. Now, it's installing, so after dinner, I will play with both versions of Linux, in order to compare them and give an honest opinion. I apologise for the confusion.
@dandylover1 I’m glad you were able to get it working! I believe we have an open report about repeating the message since it could be missed the first time. That’s good feedback, thank you!

@elementary As promised, here is the review. At least, it's the portion of it connected with Elementary Os. I am also in the process of writing a comparison with Accessible Coconut (I am new to both systems). Having said that, the latter seems far more promising in how they handle things, from the desktop layout and hotkeys (they use Mate), to a dedicated user guide folder on the desktop, complete with keyboard commands. For the record, I have been using computers for over twenty-five years, just not Linux. I am a DOS and Windows XP/7 lover, though I also reluctantly use 11. So if I am confused, imagine someone who is truly new to all of this.

Unlike with Vinux and Accessible Coconut, I wasn't offered the option of starting the system without a password. I like all of my systems to start automatically. After I created a password, I suppose it logged me in because I had to reenter it. That was fine. What wasn't is that, again, there was no speech. I had to use the ocr function in NVDA to know what was going on. If this were a real machine and not a virtual one, I would be lost without the idea of using the hotkey, which is something a new user might not consider. Fortunately, when I pressed it, Orca started again, but this shouldn't be an issue in the first place. If someone doesn't need Orca, it should start when the system does with a one-time question about whether this should be the default. That way, someone who doesn't need it can turn it off, and someone who doesn't won't be left wondering why his system isn't speaking after restarting.

I really liked the option to automatically delete certain files after thirty days. I checked them all. Also, while I didn't use it yet, it was helpful that there was an option to connect online accounts. One of the best features about the installation was the option to install various programs. This is especially good for those of us who are unfamiliar and/or who have no patience with how Linux installs things i.e. not simply downloading the equivalent of a .exe file, running it, and using it, or likewise, running a program directly from a drive or directory as with portable apps. That said, I did see something about portable apps, so perhaps, Linux has something similar. Regardless, I couldn't tell whether I was installing something or reading about it. The setup of the centre was very confusing. It would make far more sense if, after the free/paid option were selected, the resulting apps were presented in a vertical list that could be checked, unchecked or researched as needed, with an install button. This is somewhat similar to how the NVDA add-on store works.

After dinner, I returned to my machine, only to discover that I had to reenter my password. Once i did, though, I was immediately brought back to the window in which I was working. I was able to change the settings in Orca as usual. But when I hit alt+f1 to get to the apps, it didn't work. I then found this guide.

https://elementary.io/docs/learning-the-basics#learning-the-basics

But it wasn't helpful. It said the following. "To open or search for installed apps, select Applications on the Panel. You can page through your apps by scrolling on a mouse, swiping with two fingers on a touchpad, or by using the pager dots at the bottom. You can also use the view switcher at the top to switch between showing your apps in a grid or a categorized list."

That's great, but I was in some kind of blank screen and needed a hotkey to list my apps or a way to get to them. None was provided, nor do I know what is meant by "pager dots" or a "view switcher, and telling me where they are on the screen doesn't help me activate them. I eventually gave up on reading the guide, since everything was visual, from tapping, to dragging and dropping. There were no keyboard commands anywhere. I had to figure out, on my own, that alt+f2 got me into the app centre. Then, I just saw a list of programs, and I had no idea whether they were installed or not. Hitting enter on one didn't seem to start it, nor could I figure out how to install it if it wasn't already installed. This seemed to be the same screen I was taken to after installation, where I would install programs onto my machine. After five minutes, I grew very frustrated and quit. I may start again, but only if I have a decent guide with keyboard explanations. If I were seriously considering Linux, this would clearly change my mind against it.

Learning The Basics

The thoughtful, capable, and ethical replacement for Windows and macOS

@dandylover1 Thanks for the thoughtful review! We're tracking a few reports that might address some of these concerns:

https://github.com/orgs/elementary/projects/111/views/4

If we missed something, new issue reports are always appreciated! We have an issue reporting guide here: https://docs.elementary.io/contributor-guide/feedback/reporting-issues

A11y • elementary

Issues related to accessibility

GitHub
@dandylover1 @nixCraft XP and 7 are unsupported and a security knightmare!
@osvaldo @dandylover1 @nixCraft a security nightmare ... for who ? I can assure you those still run fine. Sure they are part of a, or several, bot network, but that doesn't really affect the user, does it ? If Microsoft wanna keep the bot networks size down they can provide updates. Fuck planned obsolescence.
@osvaldo @nixCraft They also work. If you don't do ridiculous things such as downloading programs from irreputable sites, opening strange e-mails, etc. they're completely fine.
@dandylover1 @nixCraft sadly true. At this stage I'm surprised someone hasn't come up with a distro specifically for those who use screen readers.
@raktatuk @nixCraft Vinux and Sonar were just that. But they discontinued them.

@dandylover1 @nixCraft
True, it will not break immediately. But it will degrade over time and the risk for infections & incompatibility will increase over time. You will have to adapt to a new system anyway.

This is usually better with a stable Linux distribution as it is in most fields less disruptive but smaller adjustments come more often.

@dandylover1 @nixCraft
@skalabyrinth aren't you using a screen reader with Linux or did I remember this wrong? 🤔
What's your experience with it?

@derderwish @dandylover1

I have a very specific setup since I am not blind but visually impaired: If I know a menu or settings and such well I can use it visually. Mainly longer texts (more than 4 lines) are an issue.

I use text to speech (espeak) and I use keybindings and some scripts to read any selected text (works similar to ctrl + c. I mapped it to alt+r). It is a perfect solution for me.

https://gitlab.com/skalabyrinth/mpv-reader

skalabyrinth / mpv-reader · GitLab

GitLab.com

GitLab
@derderwish @nixCraft It's not smaller when you have to learn an entirely new operating system, screen reader, and programs. It's probably different for the sighted in this area.

@dandylover1 @nixCraft
The smaller adjustments were more meant in like between Debian 12 & 13 or Ubunu 24.04 & 26.04. in comparison to the deeper changes between Windows 10 & 11.
Windows systems tend to change more between its versions. While Linux systems usually have more smaller improvements due to its high release cycles

Yes, a change to Linux comes with a huge one-time investment in time to learn. But it might be easier in the long run afterwards.

But

@derderwish @nixCraft Ah, okay. That makes perfect sense. Thank you for explaining.

@nixCraft Every day I see people trying to follow this advice who stumble by trying to write ISO to the USB by just copying it.

Or they don't know how to validate the ISO because running "gpg" in PowerShell gives a file not found error.

Or they ask if they have to convert their Windows files to Linux first.

There's a certain degree of comfort with system administration people need to have to make this switch smooth and a lot of folks don't meet it.

@xenotrope @nixCraft Which is why I usually recommend @elementary as a Windows replacement. It is reasonably light weight, is designed with the intention of being a Windows replacement. I've found it to be very usable in my day to day stuff.
@nixCraft what about zorinos?
Also use balena etcher for a Linux usb drive.
1. Choose inserted drive,
2. choose downloaded Linux file(iso)
3. Confirm and let balena etcher do its thing

@SomeAnoTooter @nixCraft +1 for Zorin. It’s lovely.

For older machines, MXLinux is a good choice.

@nixCraft Debian with KDE, for people coming from Windows
@nixCraft MiNT runs on the Atari (you probably mean Linux Mint, which is also just an Ubuntu), and Ubuntu is a non-free piece of s…

@mirabilos @nixCraft

Debian/KDE is a good choice, especially for people who prefer a Windows style UI. Ubuntu and its derivatives, on the other hand, offer some niceties for newbies such as signed drivers for Nvidia.

There are reasons why Ubuntu is so popular.

@bruce @mirabilos @nixCraft

I feel like the focus on aesthetics as the reason for Linux's chronic problem of not being embraced by the general population of users is part of what keeps linux stuck.

There are more fundemental problems with Linux, the philosophy behind its design, and its thousand splintered garage-project variants and standards that are holding back its general adoption.

To me, Debian is emblematic of those issues, regardless of the wallpaper it has.

@bruce @nixCraft the reasons were valid in around 2006, by now their improvements have flown back (leaving them with just their new bugs) and it’s only inertia, marketing and the Microsoft cooperation that keeps Ubuntu hyped
@nixCraft Honestly, after having bazzite on my gaming-rig-turned-console and having given it to my computer-illiterate housemate, I’d say maybe one of the universal blue atomic distributions.
@nixCraft cinnamint is prob the easiest for windows users, but i finally switched to the debian mothership. i went with xfce, but maybe i should have tried gnome or mate.
@nixCraft Linux Mint XFCE has worked very well for me in the past with an old Mac.
@nixCraft
IMHO, any machine that ran Windows 10 adequately should be fine for any of the big name Linux distributions, with any desktop environment, not just lightweight environmemts. For historical reasons I like Fedora, Rocky, and Alma, but Debian is great, too, and there are many other choices.
@nixCraft Debian (stable, like, VERY STABLE) or Fedora (if user want to try up-to-date stuff).
No Ubuntu.

Don't use GNOME if your computer is old, GNOME is resource intensive. KDE's fine, though.

About Ubuntu:
1) Canonical asserts copyright ownership of Ubuntu built binaries
https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/37113.html
https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/45939.html
2) Canonical axed all funding of Kubuntu and spent (embezzled, rather) donations meant for desktop spins themselves. Kubuntu was almost killed by Canonical like this before Blue Systems (a German IT company that's a major supporter of KDE) stepped in to save the project.
https://www.pcworld.com/article/424171/kubuntus-founder-resigns-accuses-canonical-of-defrauding-donors-and-violating-copyright.html
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2012-February/005782.html
3) Have to register for Ubuntu Pro to stay security vulnerability-free. (There are security updates for Ubuntu Pro users only)
4) Ubuntu community mods recently censored a new furry user asking question in its forum by removing the mention of "I am queer" in their post. They reversed course days later after public outcry of queerphobia.
https://bark.lgbt/@gimmechocolate/115164408860865811
mjg59 | Canonical's deliberately obfuscated IP policy

@Orca @nixCraft

Hmmmm... that's pretty crap. Might have to reevaluate my default install which is based on a decision from fifteen years ago.

@nixCraft Heh, wonderful joke 😂 🤣 😂 (Linux user for about 12 years )
@nixCraft and all these responses tell me why most people stick with Windows instead of making the jump to a Linux based system, everyone is fighting each other about which distro is best, telling people to avoid this distro because the creators did X or that distro because the creators did Y. You are all just confusing everyone 😅 most people who want to jump from Windows end up using a Mac (in my experience), people don't like choices...

@nixCraft Windows 10's expiration has pushed me to switch to #Linux.

#Ubuntu repeatedly failed to install for me so I'm with Linux #Mint Cinammon and very pleased with it.

Might give Pop!OS with #Cosmic a try later.

@urig @nixCraft Ugh... And what was the issue with Ubuntu installation, please?
@theron29 @nixCraft TBH I can't remember. I vaguely recall that after booting into the new OS there was some failure of the install flow. Error message was opaque and not actionable. I researched it a few times unsuccessfully and then moved on.

@nixCraft any distro that has a stable life of around two years - because normal people don't like change.

KDE as desktop because it will be more familiar than anything else.

LXQt if resources are constrained.

I prefer Debian because it just works. I know people suggest Ubuntu or Mint mostly, but I'm not convinced because they look very different from Windows, and if you're not on a LTD release it too fast an upgrade cycle for normal people.

Easiest switch would probably be LinuxMint for Windows users and Ubuntu Budgie (or maybe iBuntu) for Mac users.