@witchescauldron@kolektiva.social @aral

btw.
do you have "wireframes" or a description of how exactly an initial ...suuuuuper basic but useful MVP (minimum viable product) is supposed to work.

would it look like an rss news reader?
...if you can have only a basic basic version that is held together by ductape and strings but allows to interact and try workflows and reading news and sharing... in the most basic way.

how would it look like?
maybe i can hack something together just so you can get an impression

@serapath

#makeinghistory is here http://hamishcampbell.com/2021/01/11/makinghistory-a-omn-project/ it's a framework so you can put what every interface you like on top - this example is tweetdeck like clection of flows

Then #indymediaback is an example template https://unite.openworlds.info/indymedia/indymedia-reboot/wiki/DRAFT---contemporary-look-and-feel is a reboot of the looks and feel of 2008 internet updated, agen a template on top of the #OMN codebase.

@hamishcampbell the first link is broken for me

@serapath

Need to fix this WP install it keeps crashing, rebooting the server.

@hamishcampbell

hahaha ๐Ÿ™‚
never mind, BUT... having a p2p app without the need to self host could make it a lot more inclusive and easy for anyone to participate ๐Ÿ˜

@hamishcampbell

also
https://unite.openworlds.info/indymedia/indymedia-reboot/wiki/DRAFT---contemporary-look-and-feel

looks really good.
i think i can build this.
it seems to have quite a few details and extra features.

if you i would start removing random features until onoy a blank page is left.. when would it become unusable?

like ... what would be the raw bare minimum that could still not be totally useless?

other features can be added in the future, bit just to make it as easy as possible to make something you can try

indymedia-reboot

ON standby due to lack of crew - The idea is to keep it simple to push the control balance from the geek to the users. To use existing tools to build a open network then let the users decide how to use it. Simple. And if you look at the fedivers all this already exists.

Open Media Network

@hamishcampbell ...including displayed information and metadata.

to have a super reduces ...kinda kids version of this

@serapath would be better to try the makeinghistory template as a test site as it has less "politics" and "legacy" than the indymedia reboot. So something that looks like a tweetdeck with hashtag flow columns?
@hamishcampbell that link is still broken for me and doesnt load, so cant see it

@serapath #makinghistory has the a simplified UX to indymedia but its pretty much the same project. With a newswire of objects, stories which are described clections of objects, linking back to the source objects. Then bolyon hashtag flows of objects and stories to move content to other instances.

Each object/story has an edit tail (history)

hashtags can be added and edited by anyone who has a login - this is a part of the tail (history)

@hamishcampbell

yeah, it makes sense and should definitely get there... just wondering if a roadmap can break that down into from toys'r'us version of it, over a few milestones to the wireframes visible here... to eventually an actually fully fledged version of this, because even this wireframed version is quite a lot of work to build from scratch.

would be cool to build feature a after feature imho ....one feature at a time, calling each feature a milestone.

@serapath

#makeinghistory roadmap for #dat test:

1) Single column listing objects - two instances that can post to each other - objects (text, image, links). Listing objects by last posted. Very basic.

2) then hashtag columns - mastodon has this, can mostly copy existing implementation.

3) add stories, simply another object that uses existing objects and links with context text. Think of this as a human story index. (a collective community account publishes this - how does this work)

@serapath

4) We need to think about flows between instances, federating etc.

The desktop interface is tweetdeack like, think copying mastodon implementation.

The mobile interface is single column scroll to next object, or click on object for full screen then sideswipe to next object. Think "Tusky" mastodon android app

Every object has an edit (if you have a login), and editable hashtag and a comment option.

The edits are then passed across federation/trust flows, option 4)

@hamishcampbell thx. this sounds good.

if you could copy that into some sort of document to link to, i can try to see if i can prototype something like that.

it might take a bit until i finish my current pears/web bridge, but it seems to be a good first "test app" ๐Ÿ™‚

something like hackmd.io
so i have a link and you can maybe update the roadmap over time, e.g. adding a wireframe or whatever, but mainly so i have a link i can bookmark into my backlog ๐Ÿ˜

MakingHistory

Active dev - The Witches Cauldron The open activist archive is a data โ€œcommonsโ€ based on the #4opens and motivated by the #PGA hallmarks.

Open Media Network

@hamishcampbell thx. bookarked into my backlog.

will need some time before i get to it, but will get there ๐Ÿ™‚

@hamishcampbell

Okay - a litle update. It's been ~1.5 years.

Here is a very early demo of running a p2p-news-app in a web browser.

It leverages hyperswarm-dht-relay in a similar fashion to nostr relays.
Hopefully this will soon be a lot more mature :-)

https://youtu.be/79pv95Yk8qE?si=SAP9zo-o3bS4xhQX&t=493

I know it does not yet look like the wireframes you originally shared.

p2p-news-app | Simple demo

YouTube
@serapath will dive in and have a look :)

@hamishcampbell

i am not sure if you are familiar with `git`, but technically if you `git clone` the repository to download it and install nodejs from the official website, then run the simple commands described in the repository README file, it should work for you as well ๐Ÿ™‚

It should then work between you and anyone in the world who runs the same codebase ...all from your computer to theirs, no servers involved

Activist tech has been stuck in a defensive crouch โ€“ Hamish Campbell

@hamishcampbell Do you have a wiki or summary "cheat sheet" that includes all concepts and terms you describe in your blog articles?

Curious, because it might help align communication and start (re)using the same terms when refering to specific concepts :-)

I imagine it a bit like a "glossary" and maybe each term could also link to all blog articles that mention the term to add context.

If there is or will be such a thing, i'm definitely gonna read it and check for updates too ๐Ÿ™‚

@serapath

You can find lots of definitions here to add to the wiki page https://hamishcampbell.com/?s=hashtag

Found wiki, but not been updated for a long time https://unite.openworlds.info/Open-Media-Network/Open-Media-Network/wiki/Jargon

Search Results for โ€œhashtagโ€ โ€“ Hamish Campbell

@hamishcampbell alright. will bookmark and revisit from time to time to align communication ๐Ÿ™‚ thx

@serapath for the #DAT stuff to become relevant we need to bridge to #ActivityPub https://hamishcampbell.com/building-bridges-instead-of-walls/ then we have the 2 paths and people can choose without isolation and alienation of the current pushing of the #geekproblem

Diversity is the bases of any ecological system, we need to treat tech in this wider view #KISS

Building bridges instead of walls โ€“ Hamish Campbell

@hamishcampbell yeah, we'll bridge it. the only issue with bridging is that bridges are centralized again and everyone on dat can talk to everyone else without a single point of failure, but for fediverse, everyone on dat goes through those bridges and if they go down.... the communication is interrupted... not between dat, but between fediverse and dat.

also, hacking a bridge means the hacker can probabpy impersonate everyone from fediverse to dat and the other way around.

@hamishcampbell kind of the same problem as hacking a mastodon instance allows a hacker to impersonate everyone who is registered on that instance to the rest of the world.

...but yeah... otherwise it works ๐Ÿ™‚

@serapath

I am thinking of not a single bridge but federation, with both DAT and AP both running on the server sharing the same database of media objects. As the data flows around and is text and metadata is hugely redundantly stored (in public #4opens). Then one server being hacked can be rolled back out of the pool #KISS

https://hamishcampbell.com/the-omn-with-indymediaback-and-makeinghistory-are-paths/

The OMN with indymediaback and makeinghistory are paths โ€“ Hamish Campbell

@hamishcampbell

the problem is, that fediverse MUST run in the cloud on servers operated by sysadmins... and dat or p2p runs only on end user devices.

fediverse instances cant talk to non-cloud user devices, such as laptops and phones, because of routers and firewalls, etc...

a fediverse instance cannot contact/query a p2p node on a phone or laptop, because it doesnt speak the p2p protocols able to do the distributed holepunching to do so

@hamishcampbell

dat does not run on servers... of course, you CAN run some sort of p2p bots on servers and those can talk to fediverse, so those wpuld be bridges.

But vetter would be if fediverse would just integrate dat natively to avoid the need for it.

https://holesail.io would make that relatively easy. its built with dat as well

Reverse tunneling software | Holesail

Holesail allows you to connect to any service running on your machines over the internet, with no servers, no static IP, and no port forwarding.

Holesail

@hamishcampbell

...but then again, thats something that is unlilely to happen, because fediverse ppl follow their own ideas. ...but we'll definitly get there.

First it woupd be cool to have a fully functional p2p-news-app with proper UI/UX ...and then maybe a bit of testing and then maybe integration with fediverse and if anyone likes the p2p experience, maybe they can even help lobby for funding, because it is tpugh to endlessly push this forward without any support

@serapath most of the mess and #blocking is based on ownership and control. We simply walk away from this mess by putting a class of media into the commons with the #4opens

And yes you would be right this #mainstreamin mess will fallow us eventually but by the time it catches up we might have changed society a bit to have a different path as outcome #KISS

https://hamishcampbell.com/the-omn-with-indymediaback-and-makeinghistory-are-paths/

The OMN with indymediaback and makeinghistory are paths โ€“ Hamish Campbell

@serapath

Did a bit of work on the https://unite.openworlds.info/Open-Media-Network/Open-Media-Network/wiki/Jargon Will have a go at turning this into a sort story as an overview to the other 3 project stories.

Open-Media-Network

This is the space to talk about the Gita and the wider #OMN projects. The #4opens are a kinda of constitution that keeps the โ€œpost truth worldโ€ at bay. As long as you keep the #4opens in place and respect the diversity they hold in place.

Open Media Network

@hamishcampbell thank you :-)

read through and for geek problem there is even a link to a blog post from terence eden, which i even happen to know. Most other hash tags dont have any blog posts linked to give more depth and context.

For example #OMN says "building networks, not silos" and more - its listed 6 times. Maybe grouping them all would help, but again linked blog post for some more depth might be even better.

#OGB is linked 3 times, but also here a bit shallow maybe without links

@serapath it's a wiki you can edit it, though might be issues with account creation? As forgejo are removing a lot of web #UX
@hamishcampbell what does it mean that forgejoe is removing a lot of web?

@serapath as far as I can see, they have removed most of the admin web #UI and replaced it with command line only, hope they put it back, or it's a #Geekproblem deadened, we do have to stop people making mess like this.

#forgejoe https://forgejo.org/docs/latest/admin/actions/

Forgejo Actions administrator guide | Forgejo โ€“ Beyond coding. We forge.

@hamishcampbell

in a way i agree, but also, i dont think this will change.

most devs decided the command line is the place where they live and everything should be done there. spawning a UI for things can be optional, but anything that cpupd be done via UI must also work in the cli (command line interface) too. the cli is a lot easier to craft than a gui (graphical user interface).

i dont know many who deviate from that conception, but my personal take is everything shpuld atart with web

@hamishcampbell

on any blank web page, you can always edit the url bar to add url params or you can press `ctrl+shift+i` to open the devtools whih include a javascript console to interqct with a web page based on executing javascript commands ...but in addition to it, you always have UI or you can add new UI via web extensions or bookmarklets or by copy/pasting JS into the devtools console.

So custom UI is one syep away, while on the traditional command line, custom UI is a heroic effort away

@serapath this is a #Geekproblem answer which I am talking about as the problem, so putting forward this as a solution is either misunderstanding or bad faith. Worth talking about this, It's why I bring it up #KISS

UPDATE: added to end of this article https://hamishcampbell.com/rebalance-by-shifting-focus-from-tools-to-cultures/

Rebalance, by shifting focus from tools to cultures โ€“ Hamish Campbell

@serapath

The unspoken question is: what would an activist social tech path be out of this #geekproblem mess making?

@hamishcampbell

i am not saying its a solution, just that the web is more accessible than the command line and it is only a start

it lowers the barrier to "repair" and "customize" the tech. Instead of a shiny facade, it allows to get familiar with it using the web technologie

Its a balance between effort/sustainability and making it easier and more open for more to participate

The future will necessarily require more tech literacy as humanity advances, so how to make it as easy as possible?

@hamishcampbell

Of course, developer tools, bookmarklets and the likes are not even close to solve any problem.The first adopters can use it to make it better, but starting with the web instead of the command line is a huge step forward.

a browser is less scary than a terminal.
also ppl regardless of background, have at some point in their life heard of HTML and maybe even touched it, maybe even CSS or JS.

...the same is not true for linux or the command line.

@hamishcampbell

There need to be more steps to make it simpler and simpler and simpler. ...

...imho, we have all the tools activists might want already, but combining tools and using services - even if configurable - can only get one so far. its a lot of work to get done what some centralized platforms, such as facebook do with ease

we need to be smoother and better than the facebooks and thag requires participants to program it themselves ...starting with small copy pasted snippets/patches

@hamishcampbell and continuing with really sophisticated features.

co-creating a p2p platform and NOT leaving that to the few geeks who build it for the rest of all of us.

But it wont be an easy path to get there.
If we dont get there, i dont see a way to compete with the facebooks or youtubes

thats a lesson indymedia shpuld have learned imho

@hamishcampbell

a future where programming is as present as reading and writing. In an ancient past, people thought they dont need to learn how to read and write, but times changed and they will change again. Without it, our ever more tech dominated world will be ruled by an elite of "tech priests". Only if we can all program to some degree, just like everyone can read/write to some degree, then we will be able to co-create the future as people.

social media works, because everyone can write

@hamishcampbell

imagine social media where nobody could read/write? it wouldnt even exist, but if it did, it would be only for the elite of literate people doing social media on behalf of everyone ....just like programming, including robots and drones and AI and ever more ubiquitious technologies are all programmed by an elite on behalf of us.

The only way is to pave ways to include more and more people into the field that defines how the world works in the same way that reading/writing did.

@serapath the whole thing about social change by training programming is in theory a path, but it's a failed path for the last 20 years, and it's had amply funding and resources pushed at it so we have plenty of illustration of this fail.

This is another example of the blinded #geekproblem

I use the word blinded to illustrate that people can't see the sense in front of their faces #KISS

And I use the hashtag #blocking to show the outcome of this blindness #KISS

https://hamishcampbell.com/?s=blocking

Search Results for โ€œblockingโ€ โ€“ Hamish Campbell

@hamishcampbell

the issue isnt the coding as such. we have as many coders as never before.

...but just like reading/writing, where you can write novels, scientific literature, kids books, instruction manuals, zines or bools about how to organize and take over the means of production, ...so you can program all kinds of things

political science students learn a lot of stuff, but unless they get hired into a formal position, all their knowledge is mostly theory which they cant apply as learned

@serapath

I extended this post on the subject, from the prospective of the #hashtag story https://hamishcampbell.com/why-teach-everyone-to-code-has-become-a-dead-end-slogan/

Why โ€œteach everyone to codeโ€ has become a dead-end slogan โ€“ Hamish Campbell

@hamishcampbell agree with that assessment.

as i tried to say before, it matters what kind of programming.

for a writer who wants to writer novels or kids books or any kind of "literature"... its not enough to know the alphabet, words, grammar, pen and paper or how to type letters... they need to know their field as well to create the content.

same with programming. thus... either teach geeks/programmers the correct activist content, or... ppl who know that already learn coding

@hamishcampbell
to me it seems easier to try to teach the sort of programming for people who already know and have the right mindset to be able to start co creating than teaching programmers a new mindset
@serapath I think I have already anseard the last few issues in the post, you're doing a good job of motivation to shovel the commons compost :)

@hamishcampbell

the funding was for making folks ready for various forms of employment, not for activist co-organizing kinds of programming. ...also no self sustainability - once the funding stops its over, its over.

I think whether fediverse or even better peer to peer, if people learn this kind of programming it is a game changer and we can co-create our own social systems independent od big tech silicon valley billionaires and create/adapt tools for each other