Mastodawn

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Feb 27, 2024

@witchescauldron@kolektiva.social @aral

btw.
do you have "wireframes" or a description of how exactly an initial ...suuuuuper basic but useful MVP (minimum viable product) is supposed to work.

would it look like an rss news reader?
...if you can have only a basic basic version that is held together by ductape and strings but allows to interact and try workflows and reading news and sharing... in the most basic way.

how would it look like?
maybe i can hack something together just so you can get an impression

hamish campbell Feb 27, 2024

#makeinghistory is here http://hamishcampbell.com/2021/01/11/makinghistory-a-omn-project/ it's a framework so you can put what every interface you like on top - this example is tweetdeck like clection of flows

Then #indymediaback is an example template https://unite.openworlds.info/indymedia/indymedia-reboot/wiki/DRAFT---contemporary-look-and-feel is a reboot of the looks and feel of 2008 internet updated, agen a template on top of the #OMN codebase.

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Feb 27, 2024

@hamishcampbell the first link is broken for me

hamish campbell Feb 27, 2024

Need to fix this WP install it keeps crashing, rebooting the server.

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Feb 27, 2024

@hamishcampbell

hahaha 🙂
never mind, BUT... having a p2p app without the need to self host could make it a lot more inclusive and easy for anyone to participate 😁

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Feb 27, 2024

@hamishcampbell

also
https://unite.openworlds.info/indymedia/indymedia-reboot/wiki/DRAFT---contemporary-look-and-feel

looks really good.
i think i can build this.
it seems to have quite a few details and extra features.

if you i would start removing random features until onoy a blank page is left.. when would it become unusable?

like ... what would be the raw bare minimum that could still not be totally useless?

other features can be added in the future, bit just to make it as easy as possible to make something you can try

indymedia-reboot

ON standby due to lack of crew - The idea is to keep it simple to push the control balance from the geek to the users. To use existing tools to build a open network then let the users decide how to use it. Simple. And if you look at the fedivers all this already exists.

Open Media Network

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Feb 27, 2024

@hamishcampbell ...including displayed information and metadata.

to have a super reduces ...kinda kids version of this

hamish campbell Feb 27, 2024

@serapath would be better to try the makeinghistory template as a test site as it has less "politics" and "legacy" than the indymedia reboot. So something that looks like a tweetdeck with hashtag flow columns?

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Feb 27, 2024

@hamishcampbell that link is still broken for me and doesnt load, so cant see it

hamish campbell Feb 27, 2024

hamish campbell Feb 27, 2024

@serapath #makinghistory has the a simplified UX to indymedia but its pretty much the same project. With a newswire of objects, stories which are described clections of objects, linking back to the source objects. Then bolyon hashtag flows of objects and stories to move content to other instances.

Each object/story has an edit tail (history)

hashtags can be added and edited by anyone who has a login - this is a part of the tail (history)

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Feb 27, 2024

@hamishcampbell

yeah, it makes sense and should definitely get there... just wondering if a roadmap can break that down into from toys'r'us version of it, over a few milestones to the wireframes visible here... to eventually an actually fully fledged version of this, because even this wireframed version is quite a lot of work to build from scratch.

would be cool to build feature a after feature imho ....one feature at a time, calling each feature a milestone.

hamish campbell Feb 29, 2024

#makeinghistory roadmap for #dat test:

1) Single column listing objects - two instances that can post to each other - objects (text, image, links). Listing objects by last posted. Very basic.

2) then hashtag columns - mastodon has this, can mostly copy existing implementation.

3) add stories, simply another object that uses existing objects and links with context text. Think of this as a human story index. (a collective community account publishes this - how does this work)

hamish campbell Feb 29, 2024

4) We need to think about flows between instances, federating etc.

The desktop interface is tweetdeack like, think copying mastodon implementation.

The mobile interface is single column scroll to next object, or click on object for full screen then sideswipe to next object. Think "Tusky" mastodon android app

Every object has an edit (if you have a login), and editable hashtag and a comment option.

The edits are then passed across federation/trust flows, option 4)

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Feb 29, 2024

@hamishcampbell thx. this sounds good.

if you could copy that into some sort of document to link to, i can try to see if i can prototype something like that.

it might take a bit until i finish my current pears/web bridge, but it seems to be a good first "test app" 🙂

something like hackmd.io
so i have a link and you can maybe update the roadmap over time, e.g. adding a wireframe or whatever, but mainly so i have a link i can bookmark into my backlog 😁

hamish campbell Feb 29, 2024

@serapath put it here on the gita wiki for the project https://unite.openworlds.info/Open-Media-Network/MakingHistory/wiki/makeinghistory-roadmap-for-dat-p2p-test%3A

MakingHistory

Active dev - The Witches Cauldron The open activist archive is a data “commons” based on the #4opens and motivated by the #PGA hallmarks.

Open Media Network

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Feb 29, 2024

@hamishcampbell thx. bookarked into my backlog.

will need some time before i get to it, but will get there 🙂

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Jul 15

@hamishcampbell

Okay - a litle update. It's been ~1.5 years.

Here is a very early demo of running a p2p-news-app in a web browser.

It leverages hyperswarm-dht-relay in a similar fashion to nostr relays.
Hopefully this will soon be a lot more mature :-)

https://youtu.be/79pv95Yk8qE?si=SAP9zo-o3bS4xhQX&t=493

I know it does not yet look like the wireframes you originally shared.

p2p-news-app | Simple demo

YouTube

hamish campbell

@serapath will dive in and have a look :)

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Jul 15

@hamishcampbell

i am not sure if you are familiar with `git`, but technically if you `git clone` the repository to download it and install nodejs from the official website, then run the simple commands described in the repository README file, it should work for you as well 🙂

It should then work between you and anyone in the world who runs the same codebase ...all from your computer to theirs, no servers involved

hamish campbell Jul 21

@serapath so how do we build a social UX onto this https://hamishcampbell.com/talking-about-the-geekproblem-in-openweb-funding/

#indymediaback #makinghistory

Talking about the #geekproblem in #openweb funding – Hamish Campbell

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Jul 21

@hamishcampbell

dont know.
the goal is to have ever contribution recorded - in a way git does that already, but more than that have payment info recorded too, so if - in the future - anyone pays or donates fubding to some content, product, service, whatever it is, it wont just go to the person who is directly connected to that funding source, but it automatically bubbles up through the entire "supply network" that helped indirectly to enable the value.

So, anyone contributing UX benefits too

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Jul 21

@hamishcampbell

This is taking the most time of all the things, but it is what makes dat-ecosystem into what we envision it to be - otherwise its just again unsustainable or depends on some sort of grants or unreliable sources of funding... all centralized instead of organized by the ppl and community around the peer produced commons ....

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Jul 21

@hamishcampbell

Now otherwise its just like building a house... you paint it at the end... you cant really paint it while you are still re-arranging the walls and stuff - otherwise the paint will be damaged and scratches and you have to do it over and over again - so better to wait until the end 😁

hamish campbell Jul 23

@serapath I am building my boat, I undercoat as I go along, then in the end lightly sand down and give a final few layers of paint, Software development needs to be the same, you need to use the code as you develop it, or way to often its just academic. All my projects are put into use half done, test, redo, test, redo etc. Very few things are finished, It's how the world works #DIY

This whole adventure was done like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tKWqH_hfRk&t=1s

From London to the Black Sea - talk on the towpath

YouTube

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Jul 23

@hamishcampbell haha, we are using it 🙂

...but i assume - just like your boat - for people really into it, it totally works, but for people who have nothing to do with a boat and they are just using it as an offered service, they would consider what you use while you buipt it as raw and unfinishedn maybe even unusable by their standards.

...so this very raw unfancy UI, but functional is good enough for us - it is actually luxury given that many devs are used to operate in the terminal only 😜

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Jul 23

@hamishcampbell

in fact, the github repo has a compatibpe terminal client as well where you can subscribe to other blogs and publish your own in markdown from the command line 😁

hamish campbell Aug 10

@serapath A post about the process we need https://hamishcampbell.com/activist-tech-has-been-stuck-in-a-defensive-crouch/

Activist tech has been stuck in a defensive crouch – Hamish Campbell

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Aug 11

@hamishcampbell Do you have a wiki or summary "cheat sheet" that includes all concepts and terms you describe in your blog articles?

Curious, because it might help align communication and start (re)using the same terms when refering to specific concepts :-)

I imagine it a bit like a "glossary" and maybe each term could also link to all blog articles that mention the term to add context.

If there is or will be such a thing, i'm definitely gonna read it and check for updates too 🙂

hamish campbell Aug 11

You can find lots of definitions here to add to the wiki page https://hamishcampbell.com/?s=hashtag

Found wiki, but not been updated for a long time https://unite.openworlds.info/Open-Media-Network/Open-Media-Network/wiki/Jargon

Search Results for “hashtag” – Hamish Campbell

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Aug 11

@hamishcampbell alright. will bookmark and revisit from time to time to align communication 🙂 thx

hamish campbell Aug 12

@serapath for the #DAT stuff to become relevant we need to bridge to #ActivityPub https://hamishcampbell.com/building-bridges-instead-of-walls/ then we have the 2 paths and people can choose without isolation and alienation of the current pushing of the #geekproblem

Diversity is the bases of any ecological system, we need to treat tech in this wider view #KISS

Building bridges instead of walls – Hamish Campbell

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Aug 12

@hamishcampbell yeah, we'll bridge it. the only issue with bridging is that bridges are centralized again and everyone on dat can talk to everyone else without a single point of failure, but for fediverse, everyone on dat goes through those bridges and if they go down.... the communication is interrupted... not between dat, but between fediverse and dat.

also, hacking a bridge means the hacker can probabpy impersonate everyone from fediverse to dat and the other way around.

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Aug 12

@hamishcampbell kind of the same problem as hacking a mastodon instance allows a hacker to impersonate everyone who is registered on that instance to the rest of the world.

...but yeah... otherwise it works 🙂

hamish campbell Aug 12

I am thinking of not a single bridge but federation, with both DAT and AP both running on the server sharing the same database of media objects. As the data flows around and is text and metadata is hugely redundantly stored (in public #4opens). Then one server being hacked can be rolled back out of the pool #KISS

https://hamishcampbell.com/the-omn-with-indymediaback-and-makeinghistory-are-paths/

The OMN with indymediaback and makeinghistory are paths – Hamish Campbell

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Aug 12

@hamishcampbell

the problem is, that fediverse MUST run in the cloud on servers operated by sysadmins... and dat or p2p runs only on end user devices.

fediverse instances cant talk to non-cloud user devices, such as laptops and phones, because of routers and firewalls, etc...

a fediverse instance cannot contact/query a p2p node on a phone or laptop, because it doesnt speak the p2p protocols able to do the distributed holepunching to do so

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Aug 12

@hamishcampbell

dat does not run on servers... of course, you CAN run some sort of p2p bots on servers and those can talk to fediverse, so those wpuld be bridges.

But vetter would be if fediverse would just integrate dat natively to avoid the need for it.

https://holesail.io would make that relatively easy. its built with dat as well

Reverse tunneling software | Holesail

Holesail allows you to connect to any service running on your machines over the internet, with no servers, no static IP, and no port forwarding.

Holesail

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Aug 12

@hamishcampbell

...but then again, thats something that is unlilely to happen, because fediverse ppl follow their own ideas. ...but we'll definitly get there.

First it woupd be cool to have a fully functional p2p-news-app with proper UI/UX ...and then maybe a bit of testing and then maybe integration with fediverse and if anyone likes the p2p experience, maybe they can even help lobby for funding, because it is tpugh to endlessly push this forward without any support

hamish campbell Aug 12

@serapath most of the mess and #blocking is based on ownership and control. We simply walk away from this mess by putting a class of media into the commons with the #4opens

And yes you would be right this #mainstreamin mess will fallow us eventually but by the time it catches up we might have changed society a bit to have a different path as outcome #KISS

https://hamishcampbell.com/the-omn-with-indymediaback-and-makeinghistory-are-paths/

The OMN with indymediaback and makeinghistory are paths – Hamish Campbell

hamish campbell Aug 13

Did a bit of work on the https://unite.openworlds.info/Open-Media-Network/Open-Media-Network/wiki/Jargon Will have a go at turning this into a sort story as an overview to the other 3 project stories.

Open-Media-Network

This is the space to talk about the Gita and the wider #OMN projects. The #4opens are a kinda of constitution that keeps the “post truth world” at bay. As long as you keep the #4opens in place and respect the diversity they hold in place.

Open Media Network

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Aug 13

@hamishcampbell thank you :-)

read through and for geek problem there is even a link to a blog post from terence eden, which i even happen to know. Most other hash tags dont have any blog posts linked to give more depth and context.

For example #OMN says "building networks, not silos" and more - its listed 6 times. Maybe grouping them all would help, but again linked blog post for some more depth might be even better.

#OGB is linked 3 times, but also here a bit shallow maybe without links

hamish campbell Aug 14

@serapath it's a wiki you can edit it, though might be issues with account creation? As forgejo are removing a lot of web #UX

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Aug 14

@hamishcampbell what does it mean that forgejoe is removing a lot of web?

hamish campbell Aug 14

@serapath as far as I can see, they have removed most of the admin web #UI and replaced it with command line only, hope they put it back, or it's a #Geekproblem deadened, we do have to stop people making mess like this.

#forgejoe https://forgejo.org/docs/latest/admin/actions/

Forgejo Actions administrator guide | Forgejo – Beyond coding. We forge.

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Aug 14

@hamishcampbell

in a way i agree, but also, i dont think this will change.

most devs decided the command line is the place where they live and everything should be done there. spawning a UI for things can be optional, but anything that cpupd be done via UI must also work in the cli (command line interface) too. the cli is a lot easier to craft than a gui (graphical user interface).

i dont know many who deviate from that conception, but my personal take is everything shpuld atart with web

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇺🇸)Aug 14

@hamishcampbell

on any blank web page, you can always edit the url bar to add url params or you can press `ctrl+shift+i` to open the devtools whih include a javascript console to interqct with a web page based on executing javascript commands ...but in addition to it, you always have UI or you can add new UI via web extensions or bookmarklets or by copy/pasting JS into the devtools console.

So custom UI is one syep away, while on the traditional command line, custom UI is a heroic effort away