Mastodawn

@colinstu no, the #Enshittificaton is on purpose, as #Google microtargets you specifically to trigger you into doing unpaid labour for them!

Consider using #OsmAnd+ and #StreetComplete so your labour is available to all and not a donation to a public corporation...

Colin (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image Feels good (Sorry I’m helping big tech, but most of the public uses this service anyway, so I may as well contribute to help my local area) Adding in shit ton of missing trails, bike paths, sidewalk connections between goofy spots… tremendously helps the routing/navigating experience.

birdbutt.com

@kkarhan I have considered, but nobody uses that.
I mean, geeks and nerds like us do. but that % is nothing. If I'm gonna waste time, it may as well hit a bigger %. I hate this reality but it's true. But I like exploring my backyard anyway, and finding new shit along the way. Everything is feeling much smaller now, huge area all within a 30min bike ride max.

StarkRG Jul 21, 2025

@colinstu @kkarhan And, much like the "documentary" that spread and encouraged the myth that lemmings jump off cliffs together, there's someone just out of shot pushing us all off.

@StarkRG @colinstu which is why we as #TechLiterates are mandated to normalize using #OpenStreetMap by #TechIlliterates!

Nicolas BOSSARD Jul 21, 2025

@colinstu @kkarhan I have seen changes in openstreetmap strangely "appear" in Google maps a few hours later... sic..even very specific ones. So you can make changes in this nerd tool and hope having it for the mass people.

Paul Flo Williams Jul 21, 2025

@nbossard @colinstu @kkarhan I’ve noticed this when adding addresses using #StreetComplete: the additions turn up in Google Maps very quickly, though often slightly off, because Google hallucinated odd buildings from the aerial images.

@hisdeedsaredust @nbossard @colinstu plus #Google systematically scrapes #OpenStreetMap...

Sven Geggus Jul 21, 2025

@kkarhan @hisdeedsaredust @nbossard @colinstu AFAIK there is no real evidence about this.

@giggls @hisdeedsaredust @nbossard @colinstu They mirror the entire dataset.

Sven Geggus Jul 21, 2025

@kkarhan @hisdeedsaredust @nbossard @colinstu I know that there are rumours that they have some sort of data matching as they are not allowed to intermix our data with their proprietary dataset.

@giggls @hisdeedsaredust @nbossard @colinstu No need to. #OpenStreetMap is pretty permissively licensed.

It's also trivial for them to just mirror #OSM in a way that is not obtrusive or harmful to the point that it's detectable.

Sven Geggus Jul 21, 2025

@kkarhan @hisdeedsaredust @nbossard @colinstu Not really. ODBL does not allow to mix proprietary datasets and OSM and an attribution would be needed if OSM data is used in any layer.
The fact that #Openstreetmap data can be mirrored easily by anybody is a feature not a bug.

@giggls @hisdeedsaredust @nbossard @colinstu I know, and it's good that it is easy to mirror...

Sven Geggus Jul 21, 2025

@kkarhan @hisdeedsaredust @nbossard @colinstu I can well imagine a process at google looking for specific changes in #Openstreetmap matching the state of their proprietary map correcting it without actually using the our data. AFAIK there are indications that something like this exists but there is no strong evidence.

@giggls @hisdeedsaredust @nbossard @colinstu That could work in a seperated #cleanroom envoirment.

Since they have the data at hand they certainly can build themselves a workaround like an "AI" that randomly tries the most used routes in both algos and then merely checks for the directions as in waypoints and then reconstructs the precise details that way.

Kinda like when you ain't allowed to copy a map verbatim but can ask someone with the map in hand how to get from A to B and they have to give directions off that.

By seperating the copyrighted data [map] and using some transparent method they could've in theory done in person, they can certainly divulge the details...

Nicolas BOSSARD Jul 21, 2025

@giggls @kkarhan @hisdeedsaredust @colinstu

It could be quiet easy to prove using the old technique of "trap street" :

> In cartography, a trap street is a fictitious entry in the form of a misrepresented street on a map, often outside the area the map nominally covers, for the purpose of "trapping" potential plagiarists of the map who, if caught, would be unable to explain the inclusion of the "trap street" on their map as innocent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street

Trap street - Wikipedia

Sven Geggus Jul 21, 2025

@nbossard @kkarhan @hisdeedsaredust @colinstu It is not necessary to add invalid stuff to #Openstreetmap and will likely not work anyway because someone will sooner or later fix the bug. But mappers usually know enough real objects which are unique to #Openstreetmap. This is why I do not think that Google is using OSM for anything but QA. In most cases OSM where has been used verbatim without attribution mappers found exactly such objects to proof this.

@giggls @nbossard @hisdeedsaredust @colinstu basically the opposite to trap streets...

Tho Google has sufficient contributors to claim this got added by someone else...

Sven Geggus Jul 21, 2025

@kkarhan @nbossard @hisdeedsaredust @colinstu No the result is basically the same. Trap streets are incompatible to OSM. If you instead ask mappers if they could have a look at the stuff they mapped and compare them to Google most of them should be able to tell if the data originates from their data and thus #Openstreetmap or not.
They do not in my case, I just checked.
So please stopp spreading the conspiracy theory that Google is using our data. There is no case we know about. @nakaner @simon

Simon Poole Jul 21, 2025

@giggls @kkarhan @nbossard @hisdeedsaredust @colinstu @nakaner the problem is that because we are mapping basically the same stuff anything google adds after it was added to OSM gets called out as being copied even though careful inspection tends to show that it clearly wasn't. There's one case of a fake street name 7 years ago that was copied, but that was likely a report from a third party to the goog and not indicative of corporate copying, which wouldn't make any sense to start with.

Christian Quest 🌍Jul 22, 2025

@giggls @nbossard @kkarhan @hisdeedsaredust @colinstu

Trap streets or easter eggs are a very good way to make sure some data has been duplicated.

I've added fake names to a couple of unnamed path... no major impact but clear evidence of copy if they appear somewhere else.

Sven Geggus Jul 22, 2025

@cquest @nbossard @kkarhan @hisdeedsaredust @colinstu As I already wrote this is not even necessary. Let me show an example. I added the name tag Bockshäldenhohl to this way https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/36782943 because of local knowledge that this defile is called like this. There are zero matches if you try to find this name in Google maps.

Way: ‪Bockshäldenhohl‬ (‪36782943‬)

OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.

OpenStreetMap

Colin Jul 21, 2025

@giggls @kkarhan @hisdeedsaredust @nbossard yeah either that data isn’t making it to Gmaps for Milwaukee or the merging process is hell.

Because it’s a flippin disaster.

Either way, I’m fixing it in the spot where the biggest chunk of population uses.

If I had infinite time I’d fix it in both spots. But either way this merging process seems like wishful thinking or is very weird/random.

Please I don’t need the pontification further on this. Spend that energy fixing maps on OSM.

Rihards Olups Jul 22, 2025

@colinstu @giggls @kkarhan @hisdeedsaredust @nbossard It's really great that you have explored your neighbrourhood, and the amount of time and work put in improving the map must be huge - especially all the surveying etc is included.

I guess it's a monopoly effect - you end up donating all that work to one of the biggest companies, and that contributes to the lock-in they have on everybody in your region.

Rihards Olups Jul 22, 2025

@colinstu @giggls @kkarhan @hisdeedsaredust @nbossard
Sorry to hear they have such a firm grasp on everything in your region - I can relate, reluctantly contributing to some other corporations.
This reminds me of a great essay by Sofi Oksanen, which starts by mentioning maps and the control they give.

https://upnorth.eu/your-silence-will-not-protect-you/

SK53 Jul 21, 2025

@colinstu @kkarhan Geeks and nerds like Facebook, Amazon, Uber, Apple, Grab, TomTom, Lyft, Niantic, a coiple of national mapping agencies OSGB🇬🇧, IGN🇫🇷), numerous local administrations in many countries. #OpenStreetMap is at the heart of many hiking and cycling apps too (Komoot, RideWithGPS, AllTrails ..).

tl;dr lots of people use #OpenStreetMap, but often they dont know thats where the data comes from.

αxel simon ↙︎↙︎↙︎Jul 21, 2025

@SK53 @colinstu @kkarhan And while this is anecdotal, it feels like more and more are using it. It's a public good, and being relied on by many.

It's not really about whether your friends are using OsmAnd or Organic Maps (though i also have felt sad to see them always reach for Google Maps when a FOSS alternative would do the job just fine).

SK53 Jul 21, 2025

@axx @colinstu @kkarhan Even if you don't use #OpenStreetMap data all the time, it's usually an excellent fall-back in many scenarios.

Years ago my brother stayed near Padova, Italy. The rental car satnav was very poor round the villa they had rented, but #OpenStreetMap (in the form of #Maps.Me) was very good & didn't mobile data.

On another occasion he was in Kyoto. Not only did he find the manga shop his daughter had told him to visit, but he had a lovely hike through the hills.

Szymon Bęczkowski Jul 21, 2025

@SK53 @axx @colinstu @kkarhan Was the manga shop in the next mountain range? 😉

Christian Quest 🌍Jul 22, 2025

@colinstu @kkarhan contributing to OpenStreetMap is not a "waste of time", but an investment.

An investment to keep an alternative to the Google monopoly while contributing to GMaps just increases this monopoly.

@cquest @colinstu +1

GenTollis Jul 22, 2025

@colinstu @kkarhan I just want to contribute a slightly different perspective regarding usage. It may be true that few people use #OSM directly for navigation, but a huge number use it either indirectly or in other ways. Off the top of my head, it is used in Lyft's routing app & OSM data is present in Apple Maps (mostly small city or rural areas at this point); many lesser known but non-techy/enthusiast routing apps, such as Magic Earth, use OSM data.

(continued)

GenTollis Jul 22, 2025

@colinstu @kkarhan

(continued)

Then there are non-routing uses. Snapchat, #Wandrer, #Strava, Esri maps (used in a lot of GIS products), Facebook (map shown for events, business locations, etc), anything using #MapBox (lots of websites & apps, big & small), Craigslist, Shopify(?), etc all use #OSM in some way or another. So OSM gets lots of mainstream usage through non-obvious ways.

@GenTollis @colinstu exactly...

Simply because #Google is #greedy af in terms of their #API and also because a #SelfHosted #OSM copy isn't a #GDPR & #BDSG violation ready to cancel the career of some tech managers.

https://infosec.space/@kkarhan/114897089084393829

Kevin Karhan :verified: (@[email protected])

@[email protected] @[email protected] in fact #JustEatTakeaway / #GrubHub replaced #GoogleMaps with a self-hosted copy of #OpenStreetMap because #Google's #API costs and the lack of proper #caching which skyrockets traffic useage of their drivers made it more economical to literally do just that.

Infosec.Space

@GenTollis @colinstu in fact #JustEatTakeaway / #GrubHub replaced #GoogleMaps with a self-hosted copy of #OpenStreetMap because #Google's #API costs and the lack of proper #caching which skyrockets traffic useage of their drivers made it more economical to literally do just that.

Traveling OSM Salesgirl Problem ✊🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️🇺🇦🇵🇸Jul 22, 2025

@colinstu If you hate that reality, why are you actively working to reinforce it instead of joining the thousands who are working to overthrow it? 🤔

I’ve never contributed to #GoogleMaps and never will. #OpenStreetMap all the way. I choose to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

We tell people about #OSM and its benefits. Same goes for freedom-respecting (free/libre/“open source”) software. We design, print, and distribute publicity material like posters and T-shirts. We connect with other communities to spread the word.

This is the Way.

osm-awareness

Hindi- and English-language materials for increasing awareness of OpenStreetMap in India.

Codeberg.org

Gregory Marler Jul 22, 2025

@contrapunctus @colinstu those resources are cool.

The A4 leaflets are a bit like the A5 cards @osmuk did,but yours go into more detail. https://osmuk.org/leaflets/

Leaflets – OpenStreetMap UK