Mastodawn

Thomas Barrio Jul 10

@poloniousmonk @davidorban @davevolek @hosford42 @InternetDev @fixiemama @amans

1/7
#ConcertOfWills (1/7)
Thanks to all for your rich contributions! Let me clarify my approach and answer your points. I call the current system “catademocracy”: power in the name of the people, but exercised over the people. Real participation erodes, replaced by spectacle and algorithmic control—a critique close to what @sz_duras calls barbarism.

Thomas Barrio Jul 10

2/7
#ConcertOfWills (2/7)
@InternetDev and I agree: revocability and sortition are key for real democracy. He’d put this first; in my plan, it comes at step 3—after the “polis” ends (as Serres said), and we enter the post-political era. Maybe it’s time to open debate on this: is demanding revocability reformist, or a necessary step before deeper change?

3/7
#ConcertOfWills (3/7)
My plan follows the logic of “dual power” (Morel Darleux): as citizens, we take care of the commons—because no one else will. We have a plan, timelines, and concrete actions. I believe the best way to reach a goal is to propose, test, and apply it ourselves, with committed collectives. No head-chopping: beware the tyranny of substitutes (Benjamin, Arendt, Orwell).

Thomas Barrio Jul 10

4/7
#ConcertOfWills (4/7)
@fixiemama, I share your anarchist inspiration and the Iroquois model—collaboration, equality, no imposed hierarchy. Yet, as @sz_duras noted, we need intergenerational transmission. That’s why I see value in a minimal, Proudhonian state, able to ensure this and maybe organize federalism between “insurgent communes.”

Thomas Barrio Jul 10

5/7
#ConcertOfWills (5/7)
@Amans @aaron: For me, this is a test of the Concert of Wills—a digital, transnational form of “insurgent democracy.” We start from what we have: a natural world artificially embedded in society, society denied popular sovereignty, the state captured by the market. To achieve degrowth and climate rescue, we must dismantle all forms of domination.

Thomas Barrio Jul 10

6/7
#ConcertOfWills (6/7)
As a radical ecologist, I’m convinced that true emancipation requires both material and immaterial decolonization—ending extractivism and invisible enslavement. I refuse violence for its own sake: let’s avoid “substitute tyrannies.” We need a plan, collective engagement, and clear alternatives before any rupture.

Thomas Barrio Jul 10

7/7
#ConcertOfWills (7/7)
So, let’s keep this process open:
- Each brings their key issue or proposal
- Both initiator and guests can invite others
- Reference #ConcertOfWills at the start/end
Let’s see if this experiment in collective will can generate real alternatives—plural, creative, emancipatory. @poloniousmonk @davidorban @davevolek @hosford42 @InternetDev @fixiemama @amans @sz_duras
Thanks for your engagement!

InternetDev-Anti-Communicant🍉Jul 12

@homohortus @poloniousmonk @davidorban @davevolek @hosford42 @fixiemama @amans @sz_duras

La démocratie c'est le tirage au sort

Pourquoi ?

Parce que si on décide de tirer des citoyens au sort, on impose obligatoirement des possibilités pour les citoyens, de pouvoir révoquer les représentants, pour qu'à la fin, le seul qui reste souverain, soit le peuple.

La clef de la démocratie, le tirage au sort, c'est l'accès à la révocation.

@InternetDev @homohortus @poloniousmonk @davidorban @davevolek @fixiemama @amans @sz_duras I've wondered before, what we might get if, instead of voting *for* a candidate, we repeatedly voted *against* candidates until only the least disliked one remains. Would this introduce stability and safety into the system? Would it result in trust and reliability? Would mediocrity be a problem, or a blessing?

Dave Volek Jul 12

@hosford42 @InternetDev @homohortus @poloniousmonk @davidorban @fixiemama @amans @sz_duras

Voters vote for different reasons in different ways. There are already quite a few people holding their nose--and voting for the lesser evil.

InternetDev-Anti-Communicant🍉Jul 12

@hosford42 @homohortus @poloniousmonk @davidorban @davevolek @fixiemama @amans @sz_duras

La stabilité c'est pour l'oligarchie.

La démocratie, c'est , par essence l'incertitude. Mais parce qu'on a l'incertitude :
- On surveille plus ceux qui prétendent nous représenter.
- On impose des loi qui les contrôlent.

à présent, ce sont des marquis, alors que la réelle démocratie devrait faire d'eux des serviteurs.

InternetDev-Anti-Communicant🍉Jul 12

@hosford42 @homohortus @poloniousmonk @davidorban @davevolek @fixiemama @amans @sz_duras

C'est eux qui devraient craindre de nous tromper, et non à nous de craindre de se tromper de personne.

En réalité, à présent, ce système marche sur la tête. Il n'est pas démocratique

Thomas Barrio Jul 12

@InternetDev @poloniousmonk @davidorban @davevolek @hosford42 @fixiemama @amans @sz_duras

Sortition is a system of delegation that allows an assembly to ensure equal access, rotation of mandates, and non-professionalization of power. Sortition as a system of delegation implies popular control and the possible revocation of the delegates' mandate. It is necessary to support delegates in their task through initial training, support (expertise), and full salary reimbursement.

#ConcertOfWills

@homohortus @InternetDev @poloniousmonk @davidorban @davevolek @hosford42 @fixiemama @sz_duras Shall we sort the government of this little #ConcertOfWills ? What could be our ministries, roles of a symbolic and virtual micro-state ?

Shall we be free from all oppressions indeed ? Seems we are mostly intellectual white english-speaking men - but u ginger ...

Beyond joking, how could we support each others ? Is it rationnal to put any energy towards a community which is such an abstraction ? What sense ?

I believe in our power to build collective freedom with vegetables, weaving and straw-mud construction, community justice and recycling the old world ...

@homohortus @InternetDev @poloniousmonk @davidorban @davevolek @hosford42 @fixiemama @sz_duras ... i do believe in this yet often i desperate from humanity and our chances ! And must say theoritical issues on social medias doesn't so obviously contribute to my hope - or worst when cut from roots

I would rather be inspirate by what you do & feel than by what you think - whenever that still also interests me. Anyway presence of that *three* dimensions are necessary for me to play any music in tune, willingly & counsciously or not

Be bless you all, where you are on that incredible world, in your contributions for peace and understanding

Thomas Barrio Jul 12

@amans @InternetDev @poloniousmonk @davidorban @davevolek @hosford42 @fixiemama @sz_duras

(1/11)
I’ll introduce myself more personally. I’m the father of two wonderful children. My eldest has disabilities. I work in industry as a trainer or “consultant,” and my physical abilities largely disappeared about 3 years ago. Before that, I was active on many fronts of radical ecology.

Thomas Barrio Jul 12

(2/11)
Privately, I composted and experimented with natural gardening: mulching, broadcasting mixed self-produced seeds. Some results were excellent—tomatoes, salads, cabbages, cucurbits. I let trees reseed themselves and had surprises: almond, peach, vine, and apricot trees—edible, spontaneous gifts.

Thomas Barrio Jul 12

(3/11)
In 2008, I trained in permaculture during a 100-hour design course with Andy & Jessie Darlington, English farmers in southern France. They raise a Spanish sheep breed that would have vanished without them and specialize in grafting and keyline design. I learned a lot with them and compared it to my readings on Fukuoka’s natural farming.

Thomas Barrio Jul 12

(4/11)
Fukuoka’s approach is what truly inspired me to garden. I also took part in building a Pigot wind turbine at Notre Dames des Landes—an extraordinary experience. There, I saw what community engagement, free-price market principles, and full self-management really mean.

Thomas Barrio Jul 12

(5/11)
Since then, I’ve become passionate about woodworking, and in 2018, I earned a wood carpentry diploma. I’ve completed several wood construction projects: slabs, walls, frameworks, roofs, terraces—always with an ecological mindset, seeking local, sustainable, or reused materials.

Thomas Barrio Jul 12

(6/11)
Passive construction requires care but is far from unattainable. These inspirations and experiences made me realize how far society is from true environmental responsibility, even though solutions are ready and available. After the attempted invasion of Ukraine, I tried to understand how war could erupt on European soil today.

Thomas Barrio Jul 12

(7/11)
Energy issues drive many conflicts worldwide, as noted in 1970s permaculture manuals and by radical ecology thinkers. Facing resource depletion, countless COPs and spectacular policies achieve little, and major powers often withdraw from treaties. The constant pursuit of power goes far beyond any climate commitment.

Thomas Barrio Jul 12

(8/11)
Lacking the physical strength to garden or tinker, I turned to politics—its origins and its future. The plan I’ve proposed to you is the result of all this research and reflection. The first phase is more intellectual than material: accepting the need to break with all forms of domination—what I call post-Marxism.

Thomas Barrio Jul 12

(9/11)
Many authors point to commons management as a starting point, leading to the second, material phase: commitment to the commons and reflecting on the mode of production (#Marx). For this, free time is essential. A full-time job and children, as in my case, make it impossible to join such a project. That’s why I talk about a post-work society.

Thomas Barrio Jul 12

(10/11)
The city of #Serres is ending: it symbolizes the concentration of domination, both symbolic and material. This means the pressure may now be strong enough to challenge states, their domination, and the spectacle they maintain. The last dominations to eliminate: technical, technological, and the mythical market. Only then does a post-growth society become conceivable.

Thomas Barrio Jul 12

(11/11)
@amans @InternetDev @poloniousmonk @davidorban @davevolek @hosford42 @fixiemama @sz_duras
Thank you for reading my story and reflections. I hope it inspires others to question, experiment, and share their own paths toward ecological responsibility and political autonomy. #ecology #permaculture #commons #postwork #radicalchange

InternetDev-Anti-Communicant🍉Jul 12

@homohortus @amans @poloniousmonk @davidorban @davevolek @hosford42 @fixiemama @sz_duras

Pour l'instant je pense qu'il faut tout réfléchir autour des contre-pouvoirs

Comme la révocation Citoyenne.

Il faut que, quelque soit le mode de sélection, même des corrompus sachent qu'ils ne sont pas les maîtres mais qu'ils sont suspendus à l'arbitraire du peuple qui peut changer d'avis quand il le veut

@homohortus Merci Thomas - je réponds en français pcq plus simple à penser pour moi, et je ne notifie pas tout le monde, mais si des ia traduisent mon post au reste de la team je continue volontiers à échanger avec vous aussi.

Je pense que ce que tu écris et propose est inspirant ! et pas que pour moi... je craignais juste que le dialogue que tu initiais parte dans toutes les directions politiques de chacun-e sans que ça fasse vraiment - de mon point de vue - un commun satisfaisant. Je pense que l'effort que tu as fait de résumer ton parcours et de contextualiser ton partage va dans le bon sens pour répondre à ça ...

1/x

Dave Volek Jul 10

@homohortus @Amans @aaron

"we must dismantle all forms of domination."

This indeed a big part of the problem. We humans have a tendency to dominate others, especially if we are stronger than they. This instinct has to be broken.

I believe the TDG is the mechanism to sideline dominance and power accumulation.

Thomas Barrio Jul 10

@davevolek @Amans @aaron

Domination is hidden in the long term. It's interesting to deconstruct, following the invitations of #Foucault, #Derrida, and #Agemben, to question the naturalness of the state, and also to look at what so-called primitive peoples are doing who are fighting against the centralization of knowledge and power (#Clastres). They aren't "primitive" because they don't have state: They don't have state because they are fighting against centralization and specialization.
1/2

Thomas Barrio Jul 10

I also had a comment to make regarding the TDG, among other things: it's not possible to impose a "morality" through a new democratic system. I remember you telling me that voters in the TDG should vote on the value of the individual and no longer on a program. It's a mixture of morality and "populism" (without a program), which I must tell you I don't like very much. 2/2

#ConcertOfWills

Dave Volek Jul 10

Throughout my TDG writing, I stress the importance of voting for "good character" and "capacity for governance." The voters define what these terms mean them, than cast a vote in that direction.

For example, if a voter believes smoking marijuana is a sign of good character, that voter can certainly cast a vote in that direction.

TDG voting is about getting voters to think more about their vote.

1/2

Dave Volek Jul 10

As far as "program" voting goes, I would say most voters are unable to digest the various pieces of governance to put those pieces together very well. They may not have the academic background; they may not have interest to spend the time to cast a "wise" vote in this direction.

But with the "good character" and "capacity" vote, average citizens can indeed cast a wise vote.

In essence, the TDG is about finding trustworthy people to govern us.

2/2

Thomas Barrio Jul 10

@davevolek I remain convinced the system of total delegation can only end in democratic fiction. Since we speak of delegation when we speak of representatives. In my opinion, it is necessary to have a direct system in the long term. It is the only way that allows all voices ("wills") to be heard. The system of delegation could be considered in cases that require it (heavy charges) but always framed by revocability, a short and imperative mandate. Without this, we have the spectacle that we have.

Dave Volek Jul 10

In your wordpress group, someone mentioned only 20% of citizens participated in the Swiss cantons (at best). This leaves 80% not participating.

I would consider this arrangement as a "self selected" assembly, where anyone who want to be there can be there. Or just another minority running the show.

Eventually, self-selected assemblies are likely to turn in "stacking sessions" where proponents of one side or the other find friends to show up and vote a certain way.

Thomas Barrio Jul 10

@davevolek The essential ingredient is to free up democratic time. In my opinion, what we are told as "progress" (#Virilio speed, technology) can only be considered progress (excluding health issues here, I am only talking about technology, technological science) if it serves to free up democratic time. This seems to me to be a good evaluation criterion. Is it that this technology allows me to free up time, in order to participate in writing the laws defining good living together? Yes or No. 1/2

Thomas Barrio Jul 10

@davevolek Regarding issue of stacking : it's a good point. the main thing is to encourage a dialectic. once the voices that want to express themselves can express themselves, this encourages deliberation. voting is only an instrument, which must itself be chosen or not, during the assemblies (it can be banned, authorized under conditions, authorized completely...) ... from my point of view it must be framed, as for delegations, mandates. I would tend to authorize it under conditions. 2/2

Dave Volek Jul 10

TDG elections are annual, which means no one holds a position for long. I think this is a good application of "revocable".

Even if we had more free time, I doubt many of us would spend it on "politics." There are many other pastimes to enjoy and improve.

Some people will have a flair for TDG governance. If so, they will likely be re-elected. Their TDG service will a highlight of their life. The TDG will provide more opportunity for citizens to serve in this way.

1/2

Dave Volek Jul 10

More people in TDG governance (and who want to be there) is a social relief valve. Such people are much less likely to revolt later.

And if the TDG produces better decisions to give us extra free time, other citizens will spend more time with music, children, games, ecology, etc. Not all of us need (or want) to be in politics.

But most of us need and want to have a say. The periodic elections of western democracy allow for that say. The TDG will enhance that say.

2/2

Thomas Barrio Jul 10

@davevolek The virtues of voting (if any) and deliberation are incomparable. Deliberation leads to understanding. Representative voting is pure delegation. Mandates can be short, a few months, or even a year, and also revocable: it is not the same thing. The end of a revoked mandate does not have the same meaning as the end of a term, in the same way as an employment contract. 1/3

Thomas Barrio Jul 10

@davevolek When I spoke of voting as an instrument earlier, it was to speak of a decision-making vote only. I question representative voting in its entirety. I prefer drawing lots, and to avoid aristo-oligocratic monopolization, without any filter, but again without making it a general rule. 2/3

Thomas Barrio Jul 10

@davevolek What bothers me most is the very idea of the need for representation. It is a naturalness that should also be questioned, I believe. At the risk of repeating myself, apathy for politics is above all a consequence... of multi-millennial "domination/grabbing". 3/3

Dave Volek Jul 10

I have recently written an article on truck drivers and their participation in democracy.

https://medium.com/discourse/truck-drivers-democracy-5ede48c7569e?sk=1964dab23eed14ed58294b5790b40271

I kind of doubt this demographic will be interested in Swiss canton meetings. Deliberation on societal matters is not in their psyche. They will find other things to do than sit in long meetings.

But many truck drivers do vote. Western democracy provides an opportunity to have their say. TDG governance enhances that opportunity.

1/2

Truck Drivers & Democracy - Dialogue & Discourse - Medium

Ken hauled wood chips from one wood plant in northern British Columbia to another wood plant in northern British Columbia. The drive was about eight to ten hours. After dropping his load, he spent…

Dialogue & Discourse

Dave Volek Jul 10

I've had some discussion with a libertarian fellow. In theory, this system should work. But humans are too often not rational enough to make libertarianism work.

I see the TDG as a possible stepping stone to reaching a libertarian utopia. Maybe the same goes for direct democracy.

2/2

Thomas Barrio Jul 10

@davevolek for truck drivers and many others, a tool that could be used for democracy is mastodon, with a little bit of organization (hashtag referencing for example). I am against click democracy, but I am for "self-transcription" democracy (a bit like what we do here in a #ConcertOfWills!). The TDG could be a tool to consider to federate insurgent municipalities, the idea of a one-year federal mandate (revocable, imperative), in this case, seems reasonable to me.

Dave Volek Jul 10

The TDG will succeed because (1) its early builders created the right culture and (2) the current representatives are making decisions many citizens find acceptable.

No mandate, constitution, or theory can reach this level of acceptance. The TDG will rise or fall on its own merits.

I predict that the TDG will eventually marry the municipal, provincial, and national levels of government into one unitary system. But this future is at least 10 years away.

Thomas Barrio Jul 11

@davevolek "the current representatives are making decisions many citizens find acceptable. " could you develop a little ?

Dave Volek Jul 11

The difficult decisions will not go away after TDG governance is implemented. There will always be some citizens not liking TDG decisions.

But the TDG decisions will not have the cloud of the needs of the political party.

So citizens would be assured that the decision was not influenced by nefarious actors or motives.

As well, the TDG will handle corruption more quickly and adeptly. So the decision will not be clouded with influence of corruption.

Thomas Barrio Jul 11

@davevolek It seems to me particularly important to give a voice to those who disagree, which is why representativeness gets in the way, prevents deliberation. We should criticize representativeness for the same reason that we criticize hegemonic utilitarian reason. Because it is the only real reason why representativeness is "naturalized": efficiency. 1/3

Thomas Barrio Jul 11

@davevolek If we question the society of speed (#Virilio) or even of acceleration (#Rosa), this allows us to deconstruct the naturalness of representativeness, of parties, of the state, and of the mythical market. 2/3