NickMay 26
Peter Gleick

Forgive me, but if your "industry" depends entirely on stealing someone else's work, it deserves to die.

"Nick Clegg says asking artists for use permission would “basically kill the AI industry in this country overnight.”

https://www.theverge.com/news/674366/nick-clegg-uk-ai-artists-policy-letter

Nick Clegg says asking artists for use permission would ‘kill’ the AI industry

Meta’s former head of global affairs Nick Clegg said asking for permission from rights owners to train models would is “implausible.”

The Verge
May 26 at 8:55pmWeb
Show threadDodo is müde.May 26
@petergleick somebody here tried to convince me that copying is not stealing. But I still don't get it.
Show thread🟢🐰Hase Caesar🐇🟢May 27

@Dodo_sipping @petergleick If i copy your work, two (or more) samples of your work exist. You still own the original.

If i steal your work, i take it away from you. Then i have the original and you have nothing. There is still only one sample.

So, yes, copying is not stealing. That are two completely different issues.

Stealing is always illegal. Consensual(!) copying is not.

Show threadPeter GleickMay 27
@Hasecaesar @Dodo_sipping If you copy my books without paying me (or without my permission), it's theft, and illegal.
Show thread🟢🐰Hase Caesar🐇🟢May 27

@petergleick @Dodo_sipping Illegal, yes. But it’s not theft, neither it’s robbery, it’s copying.
I’m not taking it away from you (stealing), i made a duplicate (copying).

Got it?

Show threadAriaflameMay 27
@Hasecaesar @petergleick @Dodo_sipping If you copy something of mine, then sell it to someone else for half of what I was charging, then you're stealing my potential business based on my efforts.
Show thread🟢🐰Hase Caesar🐇🟢May 27

@ariaflame @petergleick @Dodo_sipping No, i’m stealing nothing from you.
Maybe it’s fraud, but not stealing.
I can only steal something from you, that you actually have. And, that’s the nature of stealing, you don’t have it anymore, after i stole it from you.

Talking about digital data, “stealing” is almost never the right vocabulary.

Show threadAriaflameMay 27
@Hasecaesar @petergleick @Dodo_sipping - So if someone took your ideas at work and presented them as their own and got the promotion you would have got if you had got credit for them, then you've lost nothing and everything is fine then?
Show threadDodo is müde.May 27

@ariaflame oh yes, wanna see who cries then. But it's only digital data, so... 🤭

I confess I tried "creating" AI pictures in 23 and it was fun for a while, until I realized the mashine doesn't really create but only transforms existing works, also of other artists or photographers. There may be enough people who don't care at all, but I felt ashamed and lost interest. At least I would have loved to see who made the sources, what the originals looked like, and give credit. @Hasecaesar @petergleick

Show thread🟢🐰Hase Caesar🐇🟢May 27

@ariaflame @petergleick @Dodo_sipping Nobody says “it’s fine then”.

But anyway, it’s not “stealing”. You can’t call everything a theft, just if it’s the only crime you know.

Show threadAriaflameMay 28
@Hasecaesar @petergleick @Dodo_sipping OK, it's a totally different crime then. It doesn't make it right, or moral, or good.
Show threaddatum (n=1)May 27

@Dodo_sipping @petergleick "property is theft" is the saying

the corollary is that copying cannot be theft, because a copy is not the original property

I'm not saying the saying is true, but if it is...

Show threadPeter GleickMay 27
@datum @Dodo_sipping Your "corollary" is false. Copying a book or song without paying the creator violates copyright law. It's theft.
Show threaddatum (n=1)May 27

@petergleick @Dodo_sipping violating copyright laws absolutely hurts creators whose living depends on society obeying those laws.

Not every wrongdoing or lawbreaking is theft.

If property is theft, and ideas aren't property, the wrongdoing is just as harmful by any other name.

Show threadnickyMay 26
@petergleick welfare kings
Show threadHot Dog Water - disruptorMay 26

@petergleick

I love his last 8 quoted words like a prayer. 😁

Show threadNazaniMay 26
@petergleick
Some artist needs to turn him into an interactive installation piece.
Show threadErinMay 27
@Nazani @petergleick It wouldn't be stealing though, right? /s
Show threadJohn BurnsMay 26

@petergleick

My bank account needs to learn how to hold millions of dollars. I should be given access to his millions to enable my bank account to learn.

And just like the "A.I.", I don't have to return those millions.

Seems fair.
🤔

Show threadKerr Avonsen (she/her)May 26
@petergleick
Indeed. An industry which depends on theft isn't an industry, it's a crime.
Show threadPasswordsarehard4May 26
@kerravonsen @petergleick I believe an organization that relies on crime would be a criminal organization, like the kind RICO is supposed to be used against.
Show threadMyOpinionMay 26
@petergleick Then kill it! It is an industry based on theft.
Show threadErebusMay 26
@petergleick Oh, the irony. The same kind of ppl that years ago treated to convince us that pirate a game or a film is like stealing a car. The same with the mouth filled about copyright and IP and the rights ofcthe artists they never cared for anyways. It seems copyright must be protected only if they gain something with it, in any other case, they deem it as an obstacle to that thing they call "progress" and we call "rob to the working class"
Show threadpurple despairsMay 26
@Erebus_Amauro @petergleick tbf Nick Clegg specifically was trying to convince us he was a social democrat, and mostly pulled it off, until he made a series of foreseeably bad choices and disappeared off to Meta
Show threadErebusMay 26
@petergleick IA "industry" deserves to be burn to the stakes.
Show thread.vad//hakara🧭May 26
@petergleick
Show threadmajo hashiMay 26

@petergleick

If you want to know someone's opinion, pay their salary.
And if you don't want to know, ask AI.

Show threadMx VerdaMay 27
@majohashi I want to compare this to gaslighting, but I don't have the spoons. Something like "if you ask someone's opinion and only care when they agree with yours, then you don't want their opinion, only to be seen as wanting their opinion." @petergleick
Show threadmajo hashiMay 27

@MxVerda @petergleick

Upton Sinclair:

https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780191826719.001.0001/q-oro-ed4-00010168

Upton Sinclair

"Upton Sinclair" published on by Oxford University Press.

Oxford Reference
Show threadMx VerdaMay 27
@majohashi ye! @petergleick
Show threadBaron VonskinnbackMay 26
@petergleick in the same way that paying workers a living wage would destroy businesses. If there is no business without theft, then there is no business...
Show threadmossyruaMay 26

@petergleick

These guys?

Show threadHeatherTXMay 26
@petergleick Let it burn. 🤷‍♀️
Show threadBawons ChildMay 26
@HeatherTX @petergleick im not sure where but there exists an updated picture of that same girl much older standing in front of a burning house.
Show thread🔗 David SommersethMay 26
@petergleick I bet the Napster and Pirate Bay folks would like to say a few words about that ....
Show threadsu_liamMay 27
@dazo @petergleick I’m basically hopping public wifi sites with my μtorrent downloading stuff. It ain’t theft if you don’t deny it to them. Right?!!
Show threadDrainMay 26
@petergleick good.
Show threadJohn ColagioiaMay 26
@petergleick Can we all play this card? There are so many problems in the world that we could probably solve if people are going to take "wah, this will kill my industry (that nobody wants)" seriously...
Show threadГригорий КлюшниковMay 26

basically kill the AI industry

Is there anything I can do to help?

Show threadPetra van CronenburgMay 26
@petergleick #artists united  #AIslop
Show threadClockwork ☃️✒️May 26

@petergleick

So we do have a recipe for killing the industry overnight.

Show threadDon WhitesideMay 26
@petergleick @Gargron it’s been the excuse for the food service industry for decades
Show threadShephallmassiveMay 26
@petergleick Slightly bizarre statement as surely this would completely negate the patent industry. Producers of technical diagrams and documents used to make products generally need consent to use them - not clear why musicians and artists should not expect the same consideration.
Show threadShephallmassiveMay 28
@petergleick Actually on this topic- it is enormously time consuming to get a patent accepted. For some best inventions its just kept secret rather than risk exposing the design. How many AI algorithms will be allowed to trawl patent libraries -is this why powers are not keen to protect personal digital artistic/cultural property? as its not possible to respect the patent laws either.? Will there be tools able to answer some of this digital data ownership/hosting challenge?
Show threadRynn the Cyberwitch 🌙May 26
@petergleick
Show threadSusiMay 26
@petergleick Fine by me.
Show threadArchaeoIainMay 26
@petergleick let me just say that I would like to be asked permission (and paid) and if it kills AI, then that is a win for common sense.
Show threadlibramoonMay 26

@petergleick

how about we let artists do the art, and AI can play their little conflation games at great expense to the rest of us

Show threadAndrew Gent 🇺🇦 🇬🇱May 26

@petergleick

"Nick Clegg says asking artists for use permission would “basically kill the AI industry in this country overnight.”

Yes. Please do.

Show threadWoozle HypertwinMay 26
@petergleick "Captain Blackbeard (CEO, Queen Anne's Revenge LLC) says paying for booty from plundered vessels would 'basically kill the pirating sector in this country overnight'."
Show threadJeremy DanieleMay 26
@petergleick asking for use permission versus requiring to show credit/source is a fine line. When something is already accessible and not behind a pay wall, there's a reasonable expectation that it will be shown outside of the owners control, as long as they get credit. Asking for permission can only be required when a modification is desired or its very use will generate the rebroadcaster some kind of revenue. When used in an educational manner, you're going to find it extremely hard to have others agree to force permissions.
Show threadJoolioMay 27
@jdaniele @petergleick Education is a good point since you can argue that training an AI is like teaching a student. The problem is when the AI is asked to create. Then again, this happens with humans.
Show threadMx VerdaMay 27
@jdaniele @petergleick how is AI reformatting *not* 'a modification' or 'its very use will generate the rebroadcaster some kind of revenue'?
Show threadJeremy DanieleJun 3
@MxVerda @petergleick apologies but can you rephrase that? I don't understand exactly what you're asking.
Show threadIron MarkMay 26
@petergleick but somehow its okay for AI to kill all these other industries while stealing the product of people's creativity and labor? 😡
Show threadEndemicEarthlingMay 27

@petergleick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWT-o-H4srg

Every time I hear #NickClegg, this song pops into my head.

Captain SKA - What's The Point Of Nick Clegg?

YouTube
Show threadbreathtonglenMay 27

@petergleick

stop stealing other people's work
stop using shit that is made from stolen work

#HumanGenerated #GenHuman

Show threadGhostOnTheHalfShellMay 27

@petergleick

Almost all business today relies on that exchange if you wanna call it that..

I should’ve said expropriation

Show threadDaedaleanMay 27
@petergleick yes, and that would be good.
Show threadH4Heights 🇪🇺🇵🇸🇺🇦🇨🇦May 27
@petergleick Interesting how, despite the widespread and ruthless plagiarism, AI continues to produce crap. It is already feeding off its own crap, as dogs return to their vomit.