Mastodawn

Emeritus Prof Christopher May May 26, 2025

Much of the support for renationalising the railways was grounded in the hope that state ownership would reduce rail fares (which are among the highest in Europe);

however, it now seems that will be unlikely, as any extra cash saved by nationalisation will be spent on maintenance, infrastructure & increased services (which in fairness are also what the network needs).

But as fares are what voters most immediately experience, how will this play out?

#railways #politics
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ceqg73znzzeo

Labour cannot promise cheaper rail fares under renationalisation

Transport Secretary says she will "strain every sinew" so customers get value for money as SWR brought back into public hands.

BBC News

RK May 26, 2025

I admire the German Deutsche Bahn model:

1. Buy and run four private train companies in the UK, including London Overground and the Grand Central line.

2. Charge Brits up to £2 per mile.

3. Use profits made in the UK to subsidise German train tickets (58€ per month, unlimited travel).

At least one nation has benefited from Thatcher’s privatisation.

Emeritus Prof Christopher May May 26, 2025

Yes, its ironic isn't it..... or perhaps (if I was to be more judgmental) exploitative

@ChrisMayLA6 @RaffKarva

The other question is why not subsidise rail rather than roads? I don't know what the figures are for the UK, but in the US it's reckoned that state and federal income from fuel etc taxes is only around HALF the level of expenditure on roads - and that's without taking into account road transport 'externalities' (air pollution, congestion, accidents, noise and climate change) - and there's a study in the EU showing that when you do include these externalities ALL countries subsidise road transport. Yet there's very little controversy about public subsidy of roads, while the much more sensible subsidy of rail always seems to attract criticism.

GeofCox May 26, 2025

@ChrisMayLA6 @RaffKarva

Of course, road subsidies help wealthy corporations and individuals, rail subsidies the young and more hard-pressed people. And wealthy corporations and individuals own the media.

Colman Reilly May 26, 2025

@GeofCox @ChrisMayLA6 @RaffKarva no, they help pretty much everyone. The “problem” with public transport is that most of the economic benefits are external - they accrue to land owners and businesses rather than the people using the transport.

Unfortunately everyone is too system blind to understand that.

GeofCox May 26, 2025

Not sure I understand your point. In the EU study I read most benefits of road transport subsidies actually accrued to businesses (primarily because diesel taxes are far too low). Far more goods transport goes by road now, so business is the main beneficiary of road transport subsidy - and generally the bigger the business the more it benefits. Conversely, for people's mobility, good, cheap public transport disproportionately helps younger and poorer people that don't have cars, or can't afford taxis - but they (especially the young) are most severely affected by the external costs of roads, like pollution and climate change.

@ChrisMayLA6 @RaffKarva

Colman Reilly May 26, 2025

@GeofCox @ChrisMayLA6 @RaffKarva that’s just system blindness. Public transport increased property values along its routes and provides business with access to customers and employees. The economic value of that to business is generally larger than the economic benefits to the passengers and if you don’t factor it in it makes public transport either look not worthwhile or you end up trying to make passengers cover the cost.

GeofCox May 26, 2025

I'd like to see some - any - evidence for claims like that. What I have seen is evidence that roads drive up property prices - and car use - and access to customers, etc. That's why the developed world is filling up with awful peripheral retail developments, and supermarkets, many only accessible by car.

@ChrisMayLA6 @RaffKarva

Emeritus Prof Christopher May May 26, 2025

@GeofCox @Colman @RaffKarva

Americanisation?

GeofCox May 26, 2025

I certainly think the big supermarket and out-of-town shopping mall models developed first in America - but really I see them simply as a function of the car. They're only viable given extensive personal car ownership and acres of free car parks.

@Colman @RaffKarva

Jonathan Schofield May 26, 2025

@GeofCox @ChrisMayLA6 @RaffKarva

Because road travel is based on a vehicle type that has deliberately been made widely affordable and thus able to be relentlessly marketed with every emotional ploy under the sun. In an average evening’s TV viewing on a commercial channel at least one car ad will feature, quite often several. One is unlikely to see a rail ad in a month or more

llanciawn May 26, 2025

@urlyman @GeofCox @ChrisMayLA6 @RaffKarva And rail travel is ridiculously expensive and notoriously unreliable.

GeofCox May 26, 2025

In the UK, I assume you mean. Here in France the (state-owned) railway system is great, especially in terms of reliability - but also ease of use, costs (compared with the UK), etc... I was in a little station - Clisson, in the Loire - at the weekend, which had the most fantastic art exhibition on.

@urlyman @ChrisMayLA6 @RaffKarva

llanciawn May 26, 2025

@GeofCox @urlyman @ChrisMayLA6 @RaffKarva Yes, UK. In France you can afford that because you are making a fortune overcharging us for services you have bought in UK. Nevertheless, the act of subsidising is laudable.

GeofCox May 26, 2025

I do sometimes wonder how many Brits know that EDF is really Électricité de France, Orange is France Télécom, etc, etc...

@urlyman @ChrisMayLA6 @RaffKarva

Emeritus Prof Christopher May May 26, 2025

@GeofCox @RaffKarva

Yes, a really good point (and boosted); one might also conclude its all part of the relentless individualism of modern society, with collective solutions (such as pubic transport) derided as the choice of 'losers'....

Epistatacadam May 26, 2025

@GeofCox @ChrisMayLA6 @RaffKarva I believe the hidden subsidy for railways in the UK has risen steadily since privatisation, though the direct fare price subsidy has gone down.

llanciawn May 26, 2025

@GeofCox @ChrisMayLA6 @RaffKarva Subsidy of transport is good; monetisation is not.

Donald Roy May 26, 2025

@GeofCox @ChrisMayLA6 @RaffKarva

Fuel taxes in the #uk have not been adjusted even for inflation for many years - despite indexation still being assumed in forward projections sent by #hmtreasury to the #obr !

Will Tuladhar-Douglas May 26, 2025

@GeofCox @ChrisMayLA6 @RaffKarva

As I understand it, the choice to subside road not rail was made under Harold MacMillan, and specifically under the corrupt Transport Minister Ernest Marples. It's connected to the Beeching cuts.