Mastodawn

Hugo Mills May 19

@cstross Definitely the unicorns, if they're your version.

Degrees of Freedom May 19

@darkling @cstross Yeah, I have to ask if these unicorns are "normal" unicorns like you'd find in, say, Fritz Lieber, or if they are eldritch Laundryverse unicorns from "Equoid".

patter May 19

@cstross what next, Ohioraptor, Oklahomaraptor?

@patterfloof Actual velociraptors were much smaller than in Jurassic Park—about the size of a medium-large dog. Whereas I'm assuming a unicorn is equine-adjacent in size, pony to horse.

Tim Bray May 19

@cstross @patterfloof Few know this, but real unicorns, unlike the ones in story books, are actually 10m long & weigh 600kg and up. Their front teeth and hooves have razor-sharp serrated edges.

Brian Marick May 19

@timbray @cstross @patterfloof They're descended from Wolfe's destriers in Book of the New Sun.

... destriers haha didn't have to look that one up; they're horses... ok Severian is riding one, cool... what do you mean, "claws"? .... wait, "fangs"?

@timbray @cstross @patterfloof
@marick

Tom May 20

And, if the Met Police Special Assessment Unit are to believed, sometimes invisible.

Hugo Mills May 19

@patterfloof @cstross A velociraptor is clearly a derivative of a displaciraptor, and the integral of an acceleraptor.

The derivative of the acceleraptor is just a jerk.

@cstross we voted unicorns because it feels like the body design of utahraptors makes more sense for group hunting

@ireneista @cstross gotta admit I'm thinking "what if the unicorn misses?" there, though - neither's looking great, but the utahraptor actually benefits from staying side-to-side

@ireneista @cstross ...the unicorn's going to be plain bigger, mind

@ireneista @cstross I reckon it comes down to whether the raptor can place its forearms/wings in a way that stops the unicorn picking up speed to get away and come back for another pass: if it can in principle, you've got a messy opening stage but things get determined pretty quickly once the unicorn's caught.

If not, how fast can the utahraptor step to the side and turn inwards?...

@flippac @cstross you also have to remember, utahraptors are built for speed, for sure, but the unicorn's eyes and visual cortex reflect over a hundred million years of evolutionary improvement that the utahraptor doesn't benefit from. seriously, dino eyes have a ton of problems. if it turns into an extended battle, that could prove critical.

@flippac @cstross we take no position on whether unicorns evolved, emerged from humanity's collective unconscious, or what. they for sure have horse eyes though. :D

@ireneista @cstross If it turns into an extended jousting contest, absolutely - I'm not sure grappling necessarily got better rather than more specialised though, and if the contest is "spike the raptor enough" vs "grab hind leg" then it doesn't help the unicorn that the offensive and defensive motions are mostly the same thing: scratching up the raptor's flank isn't so easy if the raptor's already hauling it for a grab

@flippac @cstross also if the raptor can take out the unicorn's knees, that's at the very least a moral victory, even if it doesn't result in death during the fight.

@ireneista @cstross While the unicorn's going at speed that's a pretty serious risk - you grab by the biggest area possible to spread the impact. Not sure I buy a rear roundhouse kick from a raptor even after catching[1] the unicorn - not least because it'll probably require letting go - so I'd want to know if biting'll work there.

[1] as in "hold of"

@ireneista @cstross (one rear knee is probably plenty in practice, odds of the unicorn being able to outpace the raptor don't seem great to me after that)

@flippac @cstross sure, so that definitely tells us a way that the fight could end

most real fights are over in seconds, so yes, if we're being realistic it's going to be decided by the first blow or the first few blows

@ireneista @cstross Yeah, "unicorn spikes raptor in head on first charge" is absolutely a thing here regardless assuming the skeleton's up to using the horn in the first place

"unicorn tries to trample, oops" is also a possibility that gets mostly boring very quickly unless you want a mutual kill though

@ireneista @cstross (critically, humans are weird in how much we even bother/need to use eyes to grapple with at all: we do it to spot which hand any weapon's in, but also because our bodies are so awful at the whole deal compared to basically any other animal with a plan that isn't "who needs a guard when you have a disemboweling kick?" - which, er, the raptor definitely does)

@flippac @cstross they both have fierce kicks, but we take your point

@ireneista @cstross What style of kick matters, and mass is relevant: a solid front kick to the knee might do it and is essentially practical for all but the most unstable of two or four legged body plans, the unicorn wants and probably doesn't have a useful rear leg front kick/knee strike though?

Which isn't to say there's no "here, have some force to retain your balance against", but that's not the same as a strike. And the raptor absolutely needs to break off before risking taking a back kick from the unicorn, so turning enough without getting too much bitten off is the way out of a grappling encounter for the unicorn.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unicorn_Tapestries#/media/File:The_Unicorn_Defends_Itself_(from_the_Unicorn_Tapestries)_MET_DP118987.jpg

@flippac @cstross well the unicorn's first move is definitely a horn charge, it's one of the only two attacks actually attested in historical sources[1]

The Unicorn Tapestries - Wikipedia

@flippac @cstross
we're of course discussing the scenario where that's a miss, because if it hits it's decisive. in that scenario the unicorn still has momentum that will be carrying it past... so the raptor's first bite has to be aimed at the side, right?

@flippac @cstross (OP has updated to clarify this is a genetically engineered unicorn, but the historical source would still have informed the humans who designed it, so we think it's relevant. we do note that later, secondary sources use substantially shorter horn length, which bears directly on this scenario.........)

@flippac @cstross the tapestry also demonstrates how the unicorn's rear kick works, but as you can see it's for attackers who are behind it

@ireneista @cstross of course, there are ways (when unencumbered) to position for a rear kick - a lateral spin on that impalement, say

@flippac @cstross yeah, an impaled raptor could still win if no vitals are pierced. it's a good point.

@flippac @cstross if we can get Doylist for a moment, this is the path of maximum drama, so in a screenplay that would be the way to go for sure. okay, there, we're done, back to diegetic arguments...

@ireneista @cstross The bite would be to the side - and gripping - but it's not the first move in the sequence

@ireneista @cstross "who needs to trample when your horn's that big?"

and it's plausible the raptor would make the mistake of trying to narrowly (rather than widely) evade the horn in exchange for a shot at the throat, which could go nastily a few ways - though the unicorn can't shift its momentum anywhere near as quickly so a lot of its options en passant are scrapes, but the same "dig into the hip" tactic applies

@ireneista @flippac See subsequent. The unicorn is pulling a gig, so is harnessed between shafts; the raptor is saddled, has a rider, and is wearing a bridle with bit.

@flippac @ireneista Okay, so let me mix it up a bit:

The unicorn is harnessed to a light two-wheeled carriage (like a curricle or a gig), made with modern materials. Two humans on board, one driver, one passenger. (They may be armed.)

The raptor is trained for riding and is saddled up: it may be gagged (but beware those raptorial claws!). One rider, also armed.

Weapons are most likely black-powder pistols.

Anyway: both animals are constrained! And black powder weapons won't help much.

@cstross @ireneista How far out do the humans see each other, how much do they trust their steeds' training and how daft are they?

@cstross @ireneista (If I were the raptor rider and the kit was specially made, I might take the bridle off then roll for it and hope the raptor has a good meal: the unicorn's pulling enough weight that's definitely slower to do anything about to make a neck bite much easier and it's harder to do more than injure with the horn if the raptor's controlling relative positioning)

@flippac @cstross oh people absolutely die from falling off of horses, we don't think anything could convince us to dismount unnecessarily

@ireneista @cstross definitely not at full pace, but when you're taking your own weight off the carry load you're also giving the raptor a speed boost - which would make up for slowing down to a rate you've been trained to handle

may also come with specialist kit if something that suits the body plan can be devised? You definitely want to go off sideways if the raptor's still in motion though

@flippac @cstross yeah if this is some sort of bounty hunter, they may have had cause to practice the maneuver, which changes our assessment

@ireneista @flippac Not a bounty hunter: it's all improv, by both parties.

@cstross @ireneista improvised action or improvised performance?

@cstross @flippac okay, in that case we stand by our original point that the rider definitely should avoid dismounting if they have a choice, because it's highly dangerous

@ireneista @cstross If there's time to come to a full stop (...bridge ahead?) then possibly still, but yeah, you're not pulling a running dismount without training

@flippac @cstross all interesting fights start with human folly, so let's assume the humans don't think to take aim until the animals are charging

@ireneista @cstross do the animals actually have cause to charge until the humans open fire?

@ireneista @cstross (they probably have cause not to, assuming they're getting fed regularly regardless: same reason we don't pick fights with half the randos in the street)

@flippac @ireneista Yes: it's a chase, humans in unicorn-carriage are fleeing, rider on raptor is trying to arrest (not kill) them.

@cstross @ireneista Assuming the unicorn has the bad attitude, it fake-bolts, the carriage gets the shit knocked out of it briefly then the real fight begins with the unicorn far enough to give it an advantage as it turns around?

@cstross @ireneista (actual chase-into-fight is boring at best and while the unicorn's tied to that carriage it's either capable of outrunning the raptor or not: if not, it's raptor food because the raptor is in control of the approach whatever happens to the rider - we might get "raptor wins, unicorn's people win against rider, raptor decides unicorn is enough dinner" for example)

@cstross @ireneista the rider is seriously ill-equipped for an arrest unless there's personal armour in play or a better weapon for a grounded fight FWIW

@flippac @cstross yeah you're right

@flippac @cstross you're right, the raptor would try to pass and run alongside - jumping over the carriage is too finicky a move and there's no way to line it up properly. so it'd go for the flank. with its feet, per the other discussion. this probably gives it the first strike, so it probably wins.

@ireneista @cstross I think we see a ramming motion aimed at the hips first, kicking while running in a different direction is not easy and rolling under a horse/unicorn in motion still risks getting stamped on

@ireneista @cstross possible variant: the raptor lowers its center of mass for a second and slams into the side of a leg instead with significant force hitting the knee

@ireneista @cstross extremely bad idea: raptor tries to kick a moving horse in the leg from in front of said leg

(work the mechanics through: either it's skipping a step in its running cadence or it doesn't get much horizontal force of its own out, meanwhile the collision is likely to make it spin)

@flippac @cstross right... so like the legs are gonna be the most dangerous part of the unicorn while it's still pulling the cart - it'd be very easy to get tangled in them, which could be a mutual death. so ramming the leg is a risky move on the raptor's part, but on the plus side if it works the raptor wins immediately.

@flippac @cstross we can assume that, though raptors are intelligent, they do not have an established culture which teaches them mechanical principles, so they'll be going off instinct and past fights for this. it feels unlikely that they'd understand how important the legs are to the unicorn and decide to take that risk, but it's possible.

@ireneista @cstross that's a more deeply evolutionary thing than you might expect: it boils down to "does the raptor recognise a gracile four-legged animal built for speed when it sees one?"

@ireneista @cstross Ramming the leg is significantly easier to do safely than kicking it, because you're not going anywhere near the hooves and you're coming from the side: you can let the hip "catch" you if you fuck up in the right direction, if that makes sense?