Mastodawn

@cstross we voted unicorns because it feels like the body design of utahraptors makes more sense for group hunting

@ireneista @cstross gotta admit I'm thinking "what if the unicorn misses?" there, though - neither's looking great, but the utahraptor actually benefits from staying side-to-side

@ireneista @cstross ...the unicorn's going to be plain bigger, mind

@ireneista @cstross I reckon it comes down to whether the raptor can place its forearms/wings in a way that stops the unicorn picking up speed to get away and come back for another pass: if it can in principle, you've got a messy opening stage but things get determined pretty quickly once the unicorn's caught.

If not, how fast can the utahraptor step to the side and turn inwards?...

@flippac @cstross you also have to remember, utahraptors are built for speed, for sure, but the unicorn's eyes and visual cortex reflect over a hundred million years of evolutionary improvement that the utahraptor doesn't benefit from. seriously, dino eyes have a ton of problems. if it turns into an extended battle, that could prove critical.

@ireneista @cstross If it turns into an extended jousting contest, absolutely - I'm not sure grappling necessarily got better rather than more specialised though, and if the contest is "spike the raptor enough" vs "grab hind leg" then it doesn't help the unicorn that the offensive and defensive motions are mostly the same thing: scratching up the raptor's flank isn't so easy if the raptor's already hauling it for a grab

@ireneista @cstross (critically, humans are weird in how much we even bother/need to use eyes to grapple with at all: we do it to spot which hand any weapon's in, but also because our bodies are so awful at the whole deal compared to basically any other animal with a plan that isn't "who needs a guard when you have a disemboweling kick?" - which, er, the raptor definitely does)

@flippac @cstross they both have fierce kicks, but we take your point

@ireneista @cstross What style of kick matters, and mass is relevant: a solid front kick to the knee might do it and is essentially practical for all but the most unstable of two or four legged body plans, the unicorn wants and probably doesn't have a useful rear leg front kick/knee strike though?

Which isn't to say there's no "here, have some force to retain your balance against", but that's not the same as a strike. And the raptor absolutely needs to break off before risking taking a back kick from the unicorn, so turning enough without getting too much bitten off is the way out of a grappling encounter for the unicorn.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unicorn_Tapestries#/media/File:The_Unicorn_Defends_Itself_(from_the_Unicorn_Tapestries)_MET_DP118987.jpg

@flippac @cstross well the unicorn's first move is definitely a horn charge, it's one of the only two attacks actually attested in historical sources[1]

The Unicorn Tapestries - Wikipedia

@flippac @cstross
we're of course discussing the scenario where that's a miss, because if it hits it's decisive. in that scenario the unicorn still has momentum that will be carrying it past... so the raptor's first bite has to be aimed at the side, right?

@flippac @cstross (OP has updated to clarify this is a genetically engineered unicorn, but the historical source would still have informed the humans who designed it, so we think it's relevant. we do note that later, secondary sources use substantially shorter horn length, which bears directly on this scenario.........)

@flippac @cstross the tapestry also demonstrates how the unicorn's rear kick works, but as you can see it's for attackers who are behind it

@ireneista @cstross of course, there are ways (when unencumbered) to position for a rear kick - a lateral spin on that impalement, say

Irenes (many)

@flippac @cstross yeah, an impaled raptor could still win if no vitals are pierced. it's a good point.