Mastodawn

@cstross we voted unicorns because it feels like the body design of utahraptors makes more sense for group hunting

@ireneista @cstross gotta admit I'm thinking "what if the unicorn misses?" there, though - neither's looking great, but the utahraptor actually benefits from staying side-to-side

@ireneista @cstross ...the unicorn's going to be plain bigger, mind

@ireneista @cstross I reckon it comes down to whether the raptor can place its forearms/wings in a way that stops the unicorn picking up speed to get away and come back for another pass: if it can in principle, you've got a messy opening stage but things get determined pretty quickly once the unicorn's caught.

If not, how fast can the utahraptor step to the side and turn inwards?...

@flippac @cstross you also have to remember, utahraptors are built for speed, for sure, but the unicorn's eyes and visual cortex reflect over a hundred million years of evolutionary improvement that the utahraptor doesn't benefit from. seriously, dino eyes have a ton of problems. if it turns into an extended battle, that could prove critical.

@ireneista @cstross If it turns into an extended jousting contest, absolutely - I'm not sure grappling necessarily got better rather than more specialised though, and if the contest is "spike the raptor enough" vs "grab hind leg" then it doesn't help the unicorn that the offensive and defensive motions are mostly the same thing: scratching up the raptor's flank isn't so easy if the raptor's already hauling it for a grab

@flippac @ireneista Okay, so let me mix it up a bit:

The unicorn is harnessed to a light two-wheeled carriage (like a curricle or a gig), made with modern materials. Two humans on board, one driver, one passenger. (They may be armed.)

The raptor is trained for riding and is saddled up: it may be gagged (but beware those raptorial claws!). One rider, also armed.

Weapons are most likely black-powder pistols.

Anyway: both animals are constrained! And black powder weapons won't help much.

@cstross @ireneista How far out do the humans see each other, how much do they trust their steeds' training and how daft are they?

@flippac @cstross all interesting fights start with human folly, so let's assume the humans don't think to take aim until the animals are charging

Philippa Cowderoy

@ireneista @cstross do the animals actually have cause to charge until the humans open fire?

@ireneista @cstross (they probably have cause not to, assuming they're getting fed regularly regardless: same reason we don't pick fights with half the randos in the street)

@flippac @ireneista Yes: it's a chase, humans in unicorn-carriage are fleeing, rider on raptor is trying to arrest (not kill) them.

@cstross @ireneista Assuming the unicorn has the bad attitude, it fake-bolts, the carriage gets the shit knocked out of it briefly then the real fight begins with the unicorn far enough to give it an advantage as it turns around?

@cstross @ireneista (actual chase-into-fight is boring at best and while the unicorn's tied to that carriage it's either capable of outrunning the raptor or not: if not, it's raptor food because the raptor is in control of the approach whatever happens to the rider - we might get "raptor wins, unicorn's people win against rider, raptor decides unicorn is enough dinner" for example)

@cstross @ireneista the rider is seriously ill-equipped for an arrest unless there's personal armour in play or a better weapon for a grounded fight FWIW

@flippac @cstross yeah you're right

@flippac @cstross you're right, the raptor would try to pass and run alongside - jumping over the carriage is too finicky a move and there's no way to line it up properly. so it'd go for the flank. with its feet, per the other discussion. this probably gives it the first strike, so it probably wins.

@ireneista @cstross I think we see a ramming motion aimed at the hips first, kicking while running in a different direction is not easy and rolling under a horse/unicorn in motion still risks getting stamped on

@ireneista @cstross possible variant: the raptor lowers its center of mass for a second and slams into the side of a leg instead with significant force hitting the knee

@ireneista @cstross extremely bad idea: raptor tries to kick a moving horse in the leg from in front of said leg

(work the mechanics through: either it's skipping a step in its running cadence or it doesn't get much horizontal force of its own out, meanwhile the collision is likely to make it spin)

@flippac @cstross right... so like the legs are gonna be the most dangerous part of the unicorn while it's still pulling the cart - it'd be very easy to get tangled in them, which could be a mutual death. so ramming the leg is a risky move on the raptor's part, but on the plus side if it works the raptor wins immediately.

@flippac @cstross we can assume that, though raptors are intelligent, they do not have an established culture which teaches them mechanical principles, so they'll be going off instinct and past fights for this. it feels unlikely that they'd understand how important the legs are to the unicorn and decide to take that risk, but it's possible.

@ireneista @cstross that's a more deeply evolutionary thing than you might expect: it boils down to "does the raptor recognise a gracile four-legged animal built for speed when it sees one?"

@ireneista @cstross ramming is also a tactic that would come up in fights (play or otherwise) between raptors assuming they play out the side-by-side position: it's essentially just stepping harder at a slightly different angle, which is fairly basic as "I actually need footwork" goes

@flippac @cstross hahhhhh interesting.

well... does it? its genes think mammals are small and harmless. we kind of suspect it's unprepared for this.

@ireneista @cstross odds are its genes mostly don't know what a mammal is, the question's whether it's met that class of body plan before

alligators don't count, but what about variants on that body plan enabled by higher temperatures?...

@flippac @cstross did its original existence have a high-oxygen environment, or was that over by then?

@ireneista @cstross good Q in a different context 🙂

I should probably grab a snack and figure out bed moderately soon btw

@flippac @cstross yep no worries, this has been a lot of fun but we should focus on work :D

@flippac @ireneista AIUI most quadrupeds that overlapped with raptors in our time line went for slow/armoured rather than gracile and speedy. But these are future species modified from horses and (probably) cassowaries or similar.

@cstross @flippac sure, but how good are the humans at gene editing? you've revealed they can add limbs, but do they have the insight into the animal's inner experience to give it new instincts?

@ireneista @cstross Cassowaries are already seriously mean mofos

@ireneista @cstross (also: any instinct that's been in the evolutionary history can likely be brought out again by a mixture of breeding and training)

@cstross @flippac oh sorry, we processed what you said a bit slowly. cassowaries, hmmmmm

@ireneista @flippac It's set 700,000 years hence: these aren't us-type humans, they're a descendant hominin subspecies (one of many: H. Sapiens sapiens is long-extinct).

@cstross @flippac have they attained enlightenment to the point that they're paying close attention to the feelings of the animals they create to fight in their petty conflicts?

@cstross @flippac (it sounds like a fun setting and we look forward to reading this :))

@ireneista @cstross I have no doubt that some, somewhere are, except they're probably not creating anything that isn't recognisably a bioweapon by today's standards (and ignoring the likes of Resident Evil)

Some are [Roko's] Basilisk cultists.

@ireneista @flippac Absolutely not! (They're unlovable assholes.)

@cstross @flippac it's your story, but in that case we humbly suggest that the humans haven't paid much attention to their creations' instincts :D

@ireneista @cstross they may well have had millennia to get round to doing it some - not necessarily as a big push, but as something somebody did because they were bored

@cstross @flippac but them being based on cassowaries means our analysis of the instincts is wrong, anyway; they know mammals

@ireneista @cstross Ramming the leg is significantly easier to do safely than kicking it, because you're not going anywhere near the hooves and you're coming from the side: you can let the hip "catch" you if you fuck up in the right direction, if that makes sense?

@flippac @cstross yeah, there's some risk of being hit by the ... what's it called, the wood thing ... so the ramming would be towards the front of the body, but ramming still seems like the raptor's best opening move. they're all risky.

@ireneista @cstross ...how high can a utahraptor jump?

@flippac @cstross "Group hunting of individuals of at least 3.5 m (11 ft) and 70 kg (150 lb), if proven, could have killed 8 m (26 ft) prey of a weight of 1 to 2 t (0.98 to 2.0 long tons; 1.1 to 2.2 short tons). Additionally, sauropods ranging around 20 m (66 ft) may have been an important part of its diet." -- wikipedia

it is for sure the best jumper present

@ireneista @cstross part of the advantage of ramming is that while the raptor has the speed advantage, it can ram without actually slowing itself down - it just needs the proprioception and general spatial awareness to judge it

bit short to ram the head, of course, and the unicorn is going to want to keep the horn upwards by default until it's got a use for it so it's supported by shoulders+legs

@ireneista @flippac I am currently trying to decide whether the unicorns have also been engineered with talons, in an attempt to make them more resistant to the raptors (which were introduced by big game hunters and have become an invasive nuisance species).

@cstross @ireneista Only useful in a stationary fight and limitedly useful as one or more legs gets injured: some defence once the unicorn's on its side, but a horse in that position that isn't sleeping is probably seriously hurt already

@cstross @flippac hahhaahahahahahaa yes, that would play out that way, wouldn't it. amazing.

Max Kaehn May 20

@cstross @ireneista @flippac Or maybe tail-whiskers to help them aim a kick.

Max Kaehn May 20

@cstross @ireneista @flippac The unicorn tail would puff out like a cat's when alarmed, both to look bigger and sense where to put a hoof.

Irenes (many)May 20

@mithriltabby @cstross @flippac wait, is that real? do cats have tail whiskers? we're aware they have foot whiskers

Max Kaehn May 20

@ireneista @cstross @flippac No, though the tail on a Maine Coon gets _very_ impressive when they fluff out. You could take some traits from cats and porcupines and grow whiskers on a long tail. So an agitated unicorn would look like it had a bottle brush for a tail and could aim a backward kick with deadly precision.

Charlie Stross May 20

@mithriltabby @ireneista @flippac Nah, just go the whole hog and give it quills—they're just modified, heavily keratinized hairs. Piloerectile reflex turns it into a de-facto giant porcupine, with hooves to kick with and a stabby horn at the other end.

@flippac @cstross oh great point, yeah. well the unicorn can't kick sideways, so it's a free hit for the raptor. ramming has a chance to break the unicorn's legs, in which case the fight is over since it's still "attached" to the carriage, but if it doesn't hit hard enough to do that, the unicorn's next move is to break free and... yes, bolt and come back, like you said.

@flippac @cstross so the unicorn gets the second hit, and the horn charge is decisive if it lands, and from that point both animals are free and it's the scenario we already discussed

of course, the humans will be maneuvering during all this, but they're probably going to keep each other busy and not achieve much in the animal fight

@ireneista @cstross The raptor probably responds fast enough to attempt something while the unicorn's picking up pace outgoing FWIW, but it's probably only one "good" shot

@ireneista @cstross That said, if the raptor's good at this stuff options include a second shot at the legs and any kick we can work out the mechanics for

(a spinning back kick might actually be doable without the rider, and at the correct angle is going to give the unicorn a hard time on a torso hit: this is strictly on the basis that the raptor is expecting to be outrun from a moderate start and the kick is less dangerous than if they were full pace)

@flippac @cstross oh, yes, good nuance. probably doesn't change the outcome but definitely worth noting.

@ireneista @flippac BUT if the unicorn is still harnessed to the gig, there's a bloody great piece of wood (the shafts on either side) between its flank and the raptor's claw. And if the raptor dives in front and tries to kick upwards it'll get run over by the gig's wheels. (Which are probably narrow rims with rubber-on-steel rather than pneumatic tires: ouch.)

@cstross @ireneista How far along the unicorn does it go? Are the unicorn's front legs open to attack (not biting) or are we looking at an attempt to throw the entire thing by making the unicorn fall?

@cstross @flippac great points, for sure. the raptor would definitely have to spend some time just keeping pace, picking the point of attack.

@cstross @ireneista How sharp's the raptor's bodily-not-momentum turning curve?

Because running straight in front of the front legs under the horn would hurt but be a pretty much immediate win if it can be done without telegraphing it - but having to lose momentum and get hit by the rear end too doesn't end well for either side

@flippac @cstross oh the raptor can for sure corner better than the unicorn, it's smaller. if we were in its place though we wouldn't want to go anywhere near that horn.

@ireneista @cstross yeah, it doesn't need to be "better", it needs to be capable of performing the turn inside the conscious end of the unicorn's OODA loop without having to move away enough first to telegraph the move (so: no further than it might for ramming distance + maybe a half step)

@ireneista @cstross A unicorn trying to go fast is not pointing the horn forwards, it's a strain on the neck - otherwise it comes down to "is the horn longer than my body's wide?" plus margin

@flippac @cstross oh great point. it'd want to hold the horn upwards, to minimize the torque... and that's in direct conflict with its need to point the nostrils directly forward for maximum oxygen.

of course it's just like humans to create an animal that has contradictions like that, so that makes sense, but it sucks for the unicorn.

@ireneista @cstross There's a reason most depictions of unicorns from an era with more credible pictures of animal anatomy draw the horn upwards in relation to the head!

(you can still tilt the neck down prepping for impact and presumably that area's been reinforced a bit - just the reinforcement is again in the wrong directly for carrying it)