Mastodawn

@cstross we voted unicorns because it feels like the body design of utahraptors makes more sense for group hunting

@ireneista @cstross gotta admit I'm thinking "what if the unicorn misses?" there, though - neither's looking great, but the utahraptor actually benefits from staying side-to-side

@ireneista @cstross ...the unicorn's going to be plain bigger, mind

@ireneista @cstross I reckon it comes down to whether the raptor can place its forearms/wings in a way that stops the unicorn picking up speed to get away and come back for another pass: if it can in principle, you've got a messy opening stage but things get determined pretty quickly once the unicorn's caught.

If not, how fast can the utahraptor step to the side and turn inwards?...

@flippac @cstross you also have to remember, utahraptors are built for speed, for sure, but the unicorn's eyes and visual cortex reflect over a hundred million years of evolutionary improvement that the utahraptor doesn't benefit from. seriously, dino eyes have a ton of problems. if it turns into an extended battle, that could prove critical.

@ireneista @cstross If it turns into an extended jousting contest, absolutely - I'm not sure grappling necessarily got better rather than more specialised though, and if the contest is "spike the raptor enough" vs "grab hind leg" then it doesn't help the unicorn that the offensive and defensive motions are mostly the same thing: scratching up the raptor's flank isn't so easy if the raptor's already hauling it for a grab

@flippac @ireneista Okay, so let me mix it up a bit:

The unicorn is harnessed to a light two-wheeled carriage (like a curricle or a gig), made with modern materials. Two humans on board, one driver, one passenger. (They may be armed.)

The raptor is trained for riding and is saddled up: it may be gagged (but beware those raptorial claws!). One rider, also armed.

Weapons are most likely black-powder pistols.

Anyway: both animals are constrained! And black powder weapons won't help much.

@cstross @ireneista How far out do the humans see each other, how much do they trust their steeds' training and how daft are they?

@flippac @cstross all interesting fights start with human folly, so let's assume the humans don't think to take aim until the animals are charging

@ireneista @cstross do the animals actually have cause to charge until the humans open fire?

@flippac @ireneista Yes: it's a chase, humans in unicorn-carriage are fleeing, rider on raptor is trying to arrest (not kill) them.

@cstross @ireneista Assuming the unicorn has the bad attitude, it fake-bolts, the carriage gets the shit knocked out of it briefly then the real fight begins with the unicorn far enough to give it an advantage as it turns around?

@cstross @ireneista (actual chase-into-fight is boring at best and while the unicorn's tied to that carriage it's either capable of outrunning the raptor or not: if not, it's raptor food because the raptor is in control of the approach whatever happens to the rider - we might get "raptor wins, unicorn's people win against rider, raptor decides unicorn is enough dinner" for example)

@flippac @cstross you're right, the raptor would try to pass and run alongside - jumping over the carriage is too finicky a move and there's no way to line it up properly. so it'd go for the flank. with its feet, per the other discussion. this probably gives it the first strike, so it probably wins.

@ireneista @cstross I think we see a ramming motion aimed at the hips first, kicking while running in a different direction is not easy and rolling under a horse/unicorn in motion still risks getting stamped on

@ireneista @cstross possible variant: the raptor lowers its center of mass for a second and slams into the side of a leg instead with significant force hitting the knee

@ireneista @cstross extremely bad idea: raptor tries to kick a moving horse in the leg from in front of said leg

(work the mechanics through: either it's skipping a step in its running cadence or it doesn't get much horizontal force of its own out, meanwhile the collision is likely to make it spin)

Irenes (many)

@flippac @cstross right... so like the legs are gonna be the most dangerous part of the unicorn while it's still pulling the cart - it'd be very easy to get tangled in them, which could be a mutual death. so ramming the leg is a risky move on the raptor's part, but on the plus side if it works the raptor wins immediately.

@flippac @cstross we can assume that, though raptors are intelligent, they do not have an established culture which teaches them mechanical principles, so they'll be going off instinct and past fights for this. it feels unlikely that they'd understand how important the legs are to the unicorn and decide to take that risk, but it's possible.

@ireneista @cstross that's a more deeply evolutionary thing than you might expect: it boils down to "does the raptor recognise a gracile four-legged animal built for speed when it sees one?"

@ireneista @cstross ramming is also a tactic that would come up in fights (play or otherwise) between raptors assuming they play out the side-by-side position: it's essentially just stepping harder at a slightly different angle, which is fairly basic as "I actually need footwork" goes

@flippac @cstross hahhhhh interesting.

well... does it? its genes think mammals are small and harmless. we kind of suspect it's unprepared for this.

@ireneista @cstross odds are its genes mostly don't know what a mammal is, the question's whether it's met that class of body plan before

alligators don't count, but what about variants on that body plan enabled by higher temperatures?...

@flippac @cstross did its original existence have a high-oxygen environment, or was that over by then?

@ireneista @cstross good Q in a different context 🙂

I should probably grab a snack and figure out bed moderately soon btw

@flippac @cstross yep no worries, this has been a lot of fun but we should focus on work :D

@flippac @ireneista AIUI most quadrupeds that overlapped with raptors in our time line went for slow/armoured rather than gracile and speedy. But these are future species modified from horses and (probably) cassowaries or similar.

@cstross @flippac sure, but how good are the humans at gene editing? you've revealed they can add limbs, but do they have the insight into the animal's inner experience to give it new instincts?

@ireneista @cstross Cassowaries are already seriously mean mofos

@ireneista @cstross (also: any instinct that's been in the evolutionary history can likely be brought out again by a mixture of breeding and training)

@cstross @flippac oh sorry, we processed what you said a bit slowly. cassowaries, hmmmmm

@ireneista @flippac It's set 700,000 years hence: these aren't us-type humans, they're a descendant hominin subspecies (one of many: H. Sapiens sapiens is long-extinct).

@cstross @flippac have they attained enlightenment to the point that they're paying close attention to the feelings of the animals they create to fight in their petty conflicts?

@cstross @flippac (it sounds like a fun setting and we look forward to reading this :))

@ireneista @cstross I have no doubt that some, somewhere are, except they're probably not creating anything that isn't recognisably a bioweapon by today's standards (and ignoring the likes of Resident Evil)

Some are [Roko's] Basilisk cultists.

@ireneista @flippac Absolutely not! (They're unlovable assholes.)

@cstross @flippac it's your story, but in that case we humbly suggest that the humans haven't paid much attention to their creations' instincts :D

@ireneista @cstross they may well have had millennia to get round to doing it some - not necessarily as a big push, but as something somebody did because they were bored

@cstross @flippac but them being based on cassowaries means our analysis of the instincts is wrong, anyway; they know mammals

@ireneista @cstross Ramming the leg is significantly easier to do safely than kicking it, because you're not going anywhere near the hooves and you're coming from the side: you can let the hip "catch" you if you fuck up in the right direction, if that makes sense?

@flippac @cstross yeah, there's some risk of being hit by the ... what's it called, the wood thing ... so the ramming would be towards the front of the body, but ramming still seems like the raptor's best opening move. they're all risky.

@ireneista @cstross ...how high can a utahraptor jump?

@flippac @cstross "Group hunting of individuals of at least 3.5 m (11 ft) and 70 kg (150 lb), if proven, could have killed 8 m (26 ft) prey of a weight of 1 to 2 t (0.98 to 2.0 long tons; 1.1 to 2.2 short tons). Additionally, sauropods ranging around 20 m (66 ft) may have been an important part of its diet." -- wikipedia

it is for sure the best jumper present

@ireneista @cstross part of the advantage of ramming is that while the raptor has the speed advantage, it can ram without actually slowing itself down - it just needs the proprioception and general spatial awareness to judge it

bit short to ram the head, of course, and the unicorn is going to want to keep the horn upwards by default until it's got a use for it so it's supported by shoulders+legs

@ireneista @flippac I am currently trying to decide whether the unicorns have also been engineered with talons, in an attempt to make them more resistant to the raptors (which were introduced by big game hunters and have become an invasive nuisance species).

@cstross @ireneista Only useful in a stationary fight and limitedly useful as one or more legs gets injured: some defence once the unicorn's on its side, but a horse in that position that isn't sleeping is probably seriously hurt already

@cstross @flippac hahhaahahahahahaa yes, that would play out that way, wouldn't it. amazing.

Max Kaehn May 20

@cstross @ireneista @flippac Or maybe tail-whiskers to help them aim a kick.

Max Kaehn May 20

@cstross @ireneista @flippac The unicorn tail would puff out like a cat's when alarmed, both to look bigger and sense where to put a hoof.

Irenes (many)May 20

@mithriltabby @cstross @flippac wait, is that real? do cats have tail whiskers? we're aware they have foot whiskers

Max Kaehn May 20

@ireneista @cstross @flippac No, though the tail on a Maine Coon gets _very_ impressive when they fluff out. You could take some traits from cats and porcupines and grow whiskers on a long tail. So an agitated unicorn would look like it had a bottle brush for a tail and could aim a backward kick with deadly precision.