Nicolas
Dr. Amy, Psy.D.Hey do any historians know what it means when the FBI starts arresting judges
NosirrahSec 🏴☠️ guillotine enthusiast@dramypsyd revisiting this post 51d later...
Still slaps.
Andrew@dramypsyd Historians great. But we also need psychologists. Otherwise we’ll be able to spot recurrences in progress but won’t be able to help people check the causes in themselves before it’s too late.
@arx 💜 We are gonna need a lot of things I think
@dramypsyd History documents what we have done. Psychology explains why we have done it. We badly need both.
LevkaUnless we show up in the streets en masse *now,* we're going to need guns later on. History concurs.
That would be terrible. #CivilWar2 wouldn't be fought between states or regions. It would be fought between neighbors. It would be a bloodbath. It would also be America's national suicide. The world would pick our bones and we'd deserve it. A lot of people think we deserve it already.
Violet MadderWhen we show up in the streets en sufficient masse to actually make a real difference, the cops will be bringing the guns.
Ideally we'll have enough mass to make them afraid to use them, and enough message to convert any who happen to still have any shred of human conscience...
But the blood is already flowing. Has been for years. Corporations are already picking at our bones while we're still alive and squirming.
It's going to get ugly, whatever we try. But we'd better try SOMETHING.
It's already ugly.
Yes, and... *gestures at Gaza*
Grassroots Joe@violetmadder @LevZadov @dramypsyd @arx
FWIW, Indivisible groups organizing protests this year routinely inform local officials and police in advance and ask for cooperation ensuring events are peaceful.
Our relationships with the police in Philadelphia & towns across the surrounding suburban counties have been excellent.
If the police see friends and family members participating in our protests, and they do, veterans often at the forefront, they're less likely to side with the fascist regime.
@joeinwynnewood @LevZadov @dramypsyd @arx
The nature of the job tends to select for bullies to start with, and as the fascism intensifies there will be fewer and fewer cops remaining with any shred of functioning conscience left in the ranks, so over time these tactics will lose their efficacy. Another reason to push back harder sooner, before the dissenters have been picked off and power more thoroughly consolidated. The longer we wait, the worse it'll get when push finally comes to shove.
lonely extrovert@violetmadder @joeinwynnewood @LevZadov @dramypsyd @arx also, neighborhood cops can't do much when the feds roll in with tanks etc.
Jon A. Cruz@violetmadder @joeinwynnewood @LevZadov @dramypsyd @arx it's not just the nature of the job...
Police departments intentionally *reject* candidates that are too intelligent and the Supreme Court has ruled that the practice is ok.
EUCWolf@joeinwynnewood @violetmadder @LevZadov @dramypsyd @arx
Having survived 2020 in Portland Oregon, I believe you are badly mistaken, and your error in judgement could get people hurt or killed.
The cops attacked their families and "friends", they targeted veterans, they shot nonviolent protesters directly with grenades, they repeatedly tried to run down protesters with their trucks, they burned out random cars, they gassed entire neighborhoods for days on end.
The cops are extremely violent and should not be communicated with or trusted at all, ever.
@EUCWolf @joeinwynnewood @violetmadder @dramypsyd @arx
Are you suggesting that people be afraid to resist because the cops are omnipotent? Is that what you're saying?
Are you suggesting that people be afraid to resist because the cops are omnipotent? Is that what you're saying?
@LevZadov @joeinwynnewood @violetmadder @dramypsyd @arx
No, I am suggesting that the police goal is to create that feeling, and that telling people that you should work with the cops to run your protests is a bad idea and dangerous.
@EUCWolf @joeinwynnewood @violetmadder @dramypsyd @arx
Whatever else the cop may be (class traitors comes to mind) they are also fellow workers. We should extend our working class solidarity to them and teach them how to stage a wildcat strike.
It's also useful to suborn individuals who can bring valuable intelligence with them when they defect. We don't need to convert them all, just one would do if he has access to intelligence files. It's OK to lie to him in the process, or sleep with him, or whatever it takes.
Do yourself a favor. Rent this movie:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117039/
Pay special attention to the scene where Collins suborns the cop with the files.
If you prefer books to movies read about it here:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/314387.Michael_Collins
and here:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1993532.My_Fight_For_Irish_Freedom
The later book contains a scene, accompanied by photographs, where the IRA hit squad sat on a tram across from the government's hit squad. The IRA hit squad recognized their counterparts from the suborned data. The government's hit squad did *not* recognize the IRA hit squad. Superior intelligence gathering won the war, and Ireland's independence. with it.
If a guerilla is worth ten regular soldiers, a spy is worth entire armies. Nothing is more important than gathering intelligence.
I also recommend *The Art of War* by Sun Tzu. He devotes an entire chapter to the different kinds of spies and how to employ them effectively.
The best intelligence always comes from enemy insiders.
@EUCWolf @joeinwynnewood @violetmadder @dramypsyd @arx
FWIW, here's an excerpt from a work in progress:
**************
Once, during the Central American Wars, a demonstration was forming up in Delores Park, in San Francisco's historic Mission District. About fifteen hundred people were mingling about and getting themselves organized. The general plan was to march to Market St. and then down to Civic Center. This route held great symbolic significance to local cops and radicals both. As Herself and I milled around with the crowd at the park we stumbled on a couple of ANSWER types portraying themselves as leaders while negotiating with some plainclothes cops, ostensibly on behalf of the crowd, but without most of the crowd knowing about it, let alone having given them a mandate. But there they were, doing it anyhow. Authoritarians attempt to co-opt peace movements. It happens. It's part of the political ecology of the war/antiwar dichotomy. It's not new and it's not going away. We just have to organize around it.
The cops were offering these faux leaders a faux deal: The cops wouldn't arrest anybody if the demonstrators stayed in the right lane of Market St., didn't break any windows, and dispersed when they got to Civic Center. In no way was this not a trap. Herself and I got out of there before anyone started marching so we would not get swept up with the crowd and into a kettle. We rode over to Mission St. and killed some time eating burritos. Meanwhile, the situation on Market St. had predictably developed without us. We didn't have some occult power to foretell the future. We've just seen this before. Cops are predictable. It's their saving grace. We circled around and came up behind them. Coming up behind an enemy is a time honored tactic with roots dating back in pointed stick days. It's what Makhno did at Peregonovka. It worked out for them, so I figured it'd work out for us.
The wisdom of the ancestors proved right again. It was a trap. When we arrived we found about fifteen hundred people had been kettled on Market St. They were being cited one by one. It was not a hasty process. Nearer to us, a contingent of SFPD cops had formed a blocking line to protect the kettle from being broken by the growing crowd of demonstrators half block away. We joined the growing crowd. First, though, we parked the bike facing away from where the action was going to develop, should that come to pass. A quick getaway is always a good option to have up your sleeve. We set about to see what was happening. The plan had been consensed to before we got there. It was to provoke a charge by the blocking line, thereby opening an escape route for the people in the kettle. Of course Herself and I joined in. We were taunting the cops with some pretty rude insults but they stood firm. None of our traditional chants were working on them. Then people started chanting, "Big sticks, little dicks," over and over, louder and louder.
Eventually it triggered one cop. He lost it and broke both discipline and ranks, spinning on his heels, and running straight at us, cursing and waving his stick. We couldn’t help but notice that it wasn’t so big. Neither was he. Of course the other cops had to break ranks and run to back him up. They apparently hadn't practiced the maneuver beforehand. They swarmed clumsily, bumping into each other and looking like fools. Chaos ensued. The line was broken. For a moment, the people in the kettle had a chance to break out. They didn't even try. They were either too cowed by the illusory omnipotence of the state, too deficient in imagination, or both. It was a sad sight. What fools these mortals be.
Now it was time to get on the scooter and scoot. So we did. It was an R/100 BMW, as solid as a Russian tractor, and life-bet reliable. It started immediately and we rolled away to safety. In the rearview mirrors I could see the cops scattering the little crowd that had triggered them. One cop was standing in the middle of Market St. shaking his fist at Herself and me. We were getting away. Cops hate that. I believe it was the same cop whose discipline breakdown had started the chaos in the first place. I can't be certain, though, what with "objects in the mirror" effect and all that. Besides, riot cops look an awful lot alike. They’re ugly and their mother dresses them funny. They look a whole lot better in a rear view mirror than they do face to face.
As we turned the first corner, Herself twisted around far enough to show him her profile, puffed out her chest, blew him a kiss, and slapped herself on the butt. I twisted my wrist and badda bing, badda zoom, just like that we were gone. That cop's last sight of us was Herself's disappearing profile. He was never going to get any of that and he knew it. My last view of him was in my mirror and over her shoulder. His hopping mad tantrum about it in the middle of Market St. was a glorious sight. It's really big fun to taunt cops and then get away. It’s not all that difficult. It takes more than chutzpah. You also have to know the terrain. Fortunately, that's not rocket science, either.
samiamsam@EUCWolf @joeinwynnewood @violetmadder @LevZadov @dramypsyd @arx
the only people rioting at the Black Lives Matter protests were THE POLICE
@EUCWolf @violetmadder @LevZadov @dramypsyd @arx
The dynamics of the summer of 2020 and now are very different.
The Philly cops were at times violent then as well, but again, the circumstances were very different, not the least of which is that the protests today are led by middle class white people. There's all manner of things wrong with that dynamic, but it's still the current reality.
Please be clear, I'm not saying the police can't or won't be violent, but it's not a given either.
S. Sanchez@EUCWolf @joeinwynnewood @violetmadder @LevZadov @dramypsyd @arx Seriously, they're fine with collaborating with groups that aren't challenging them. Take those same protests to occupy a government building to try to stop the process of fascism growing and see how friendly they'll be. 2020 in Seattle also had all those groups participating, that didn't stop them from declaring war on a neighborhood.
ahoyboyhoy@EUCWolf @joeinwynnewood @violetmadder @LevZadov @dramypsyd @arx two things can be true at the same time: ACAB and understanding requires communication. But please don't trust the cops or believe they're on your side must because their boot is not currently on your back.
@ahoyboyhoy @EUCWolf @violetmadder @LevZadov @dramypsyd @arx
Establishing good relations is far from believing they're on our side. The best we can hope for is they won't be actively against us.
Not giving them reasons to be against us is an important step in that direction.
Giving them reasons to stay out of our fight with the regime is another one.
We're neither naive nor stupid.
We understand the risks of non-violent protest.
We understand the possibility of winning the fight.
Get to 3.5%.
foundseed@joeinwynnewood @violetmadder @LevZadov @dramypsyd @arx
Indivisible has had at least two incidents of abuse towards protesters/organizers that were "too radical".
All inviting the cops does is put people at risk. Maybe not now, but you have to assume that if you've been to an action with police presence, you are likely on a list of some sort. To be a good person you have to be a bad cop. Cops will join us because fascism is a death cult, not because of who we invite to the sign wavjng party.
Indivisible has had at least two incidents of abuse towards protesters/organizers that were "too radical".
All inviting the cops does is put people at risk. Maybe not now, but you have to assume that if you've been to an action with police presence, you are likely on a list of some sort. To be a good person you have to be a bad cop. Cops will join us because fascism is a death cult, not because of who we invite to the sign wavjng party.
@foundseed @violetmadder @LevZadov @dramypsyd @arx
Where did you get your information from?
No one is "inviting" cops.
Informing and cooperating to keep the peace when MAGA instigators show up, which has happened, isn't in any sense of the word inviting.
@joeinwynnewood @foundseed @violetmadder @dramypsyd @arx
What makes you think that relying on the cops to protect you is a good idea? Are you not capable of defending yourselves? Have you not noticed that when the cops show up they *always* take the side of the fash? Just wondering.
@LevZadov @foundseed @violetmadder @dramypsyd @arx
What makes you think we are relying on the police? We have our own peace-keepers.
The police have, on a couple or so occasions chosen to put themselves in the line of sight of a few MAGA agitators.
We're not doing anarchist bullshit.
We're building a majority movement again The Criminal's regime and it's working.
@joeinwynnewood @foundseed @violetmadder @dramypsyd @arx
He called anarchists bullshitters. He's blocked.
@foundseed @joeinwynnewood @violetmadder @dramypsyd @arx
The "peace police" strike again. Feh.
@joeinwynnewood @violetmadder @LevZadov @dramypsyd @arx
In fact, when a group prides itself on not having friction with cops (getting all the permits etc), what they are doing, is the cops' work for them. Those groups that seek legalist permission are not the groups that will allow for real defense of fellow protesters when needed. Groups like Extinction Rebellion chew up and spit out activists, giving them criminal records by allowing people to just get arrested. Be wary of the big tent.
In fact, when a group prides itself on not having friction with cops (getting all the permits etc), what they are doing, is the cops' work for them. Those groups that seek legalist permission are not the groups that will allow for real defense of fellow protesters when needed. Groups like Extinction Rebellion chew up and spit out activists, giving them criminal records by allowing people to just get arrested. Be wary of the big tent.
Luna chan
Analog AI@Luna @violetmadder @LevZadov @dramypsyd @arx But are enough in the USA willing to risk "rocking the boat" to do the same as South Korea? Maybe, but I'm not confident.
@Retreival9096 @Luna @LevZadov @dramypsyd @arx
South Korea also has clear living memories of dictatorship from the 80s, and mandatory military service which means the military is full of regular folks who weren't in the mood to do martial law.
@violetmadder @Retreival9096 @Luna @dramypsyd @arx
The American military is overwhelming working class. There's not a billionaire among them. Just saying.
StarravenI have been actively hoping for it since Trump's first "51st state" comment.
Ivey Janette McClelland@LevZadov @dramypsyd @arx The media would love it. For big ratings,profits, enforcing negative stereotypes,and for promoting Trump even more.
Don't assumed they'd still be alive. In a real civil war, they wouldn't last a week. Any war is dangerous for journalists.
@LevZadov @dramypsyd @arx Especially when they send bimbos into inner cities to interview "safe" Blacks and Latinos.
sam@LevZadov what do you mean "gonna need" guns, you better already have some of those lined up! People aren't going to show up en-mass .. Americans, especially boomers, are not going to wake up until the whole thing is destroyed. Shooting each other is the inevitable outcome here unless a miracle occurs :/
Wulfy—Speaker to the machinesWe are going to need a bigger camp!
RadAufheber*in 🚴 🚲 🎡@n_dimension @dramypsyd @arx @Npars01 It depends very much on the counts on which a judge is arrested. If they'd charge and arrest Roberts, Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh + Barrett for their #dicktatorship-#coup (and some of them also for other felonies, corruption, s.assault, etc.), that would be a correct procedure.
But the case of #HannahDugan definitely is just another part of the ongoing fascist #trump-#musk-#doge-#gop... coup, more to come.
sortius@arx @dramypsyd this was discussed at great length, even during WWII, in the US, as there was already a deep attachment to fascism (there's plenty of examples of Germany admiring American fascism).
The problem is, the way they dealt with it was ridiculous propaganda. Everyone expects Nazis to wear black, have a scar down their face, and talk like a caricature of a German.
The reality is, most fascists, especially Nazis, were "normal" people who held abhorrent views. Some were even "nice"
Aaron@sortius @arx @dramypsyd Good ol' Southern boys. They live all around me. I never trusted them. Now they're showing me I was right not to. These "normal" folks are the first to judge when someone doesn't look or act just like everybody else. They live by the law of conformity, and they get angry and dismissive when anyone else doesn't. They'll be all chummy and pally and har har har so good humored right up until they turn on you and do you in for being "a little off" or having the wrong skin color.
@sortius @arx @dramypsyd I've had the misfortune of being surrounded by them my whole life, and being autistic I learned to hide in plain sight because I know from hard experience they cannot be trusted.
"Wish the sun to stand still.." 🌞@arx @dramypsyd Didn't work this time, though. The APA punished at least one psychiatrist who warned against Trump.
Reinis Lazda@arx @dramypsyd Psychologists have failed miserably. The facts have been there all the time, Tajfel's and Asch's research still hold. Alas, when the time came to issue public warnings, paychologists were being ordinary people falling into the same traps as everybody else.
@ReinisLazda @dramypsyd Talk about physician heal thyself.
There is also a long-established convention where a psychologist will not publicly assess anyone. Patient confidentiality etc. That’s all very noble but then where is our early warning system for malevolent politicians and their sponsors? Just a bunch of YouTubers pissing in the wind.
Too late. Sick societies elect bad politicians. For as long as elections are permitted. Protests after the fact are reactive, so rarely change anything because they’re too small and they’re blaming the symptom.
Plus, it’s too much fear and effort for a majority of people to risk the comfort of their daily routines. Especially when one can just “learn to live with it” or hope someone else does something about it. The bad actors rely on this, too. And they’re right.
Then things become so bad that people stop watching the news, because it’s too upsetting. And the therapists applaud that, because “it’s not like I can do anything about it, is there?”
@arx @dramypsyd Protests are important. They need to be large enough though to achieve results. Without protests, you will not have free elections anymore.
Most countries have gone through similar processes, my country included.
@arx @dramypsyd And, in order to organize large enough protests, you will have to relearn cooperating, to recreate a common national identity instead of fighting each other from your respective echo chambers. The sooner you step out of your trenches and start organizing around the common cause, the better.
It won't be easy though. There has been peacetime in your country for quite a long time, so you have been fighting each other instead.
@ReinisLazda @arx @dramypsyd Let's not take this lying down. We Americans are so filled with pride about being "the land of the free", our revolution against the British, our role in fighting the Nazis. Then the minute something goes wrong, oh no, there's nothing we can do about it. Stand together. Fight. Now is when we show what we are really made of.
Brahms@dramypsyd well, not an historian, but as a german I can tell you its probably not ending well
Tody MotmotEdit: This particular court hearing was re: domestic abuse, not immigration.
Undocumented people need to attend court appointments to comply with the law.
New ICE policy is to arrest people when they are following the law by attending court (including court hearings to determine if they are eligible to immigrate.) Ergo, the judge tried to stop an illegal arrest.
Our media is glossing over facts, implying Trump is tough, judge is weak on enforcing the law.
Scott Williams 🐧@todymotmot @brahms @dramypsyd I think CNN reported that ICE didn't have the right warrant and the officers came in plain clothes.
troy_friz_zell@todymotmot @brahms @dramypsyd
"Our media is glossing over facts"
No, "our" media is fascist. Without media complicity, there would be no Republican Party right now. Their crimes and lies would have put them out of business 40 years ago if the media hadn't sheltered and protected them.
Politicians aren't the only ones who need to see some jail time once this regime falls.
Let's differentiate between corporate owners and managers, and journalists and reporters.
There are many good journalists and reporters who are fighting Trump with all they've got. But the corporate owners, managers, especially the headline-writers, and those who control content, are much worse than complicit.
Luna Dragofelis is moving to void.lgbt@dramypsyd As a German, I can tell you that it means nothing good
We have experience with that stuff here
We have experience with that stuff here
What do you mean fascism means nothing good?
The Uniforms are great.
The outdoor festivals fantastic.
Everyone is doing their bit for the manifest destiny.
You just wait another 300 years and Nazi costumes will be as popular as sea bandits aka Pirates are now!
CyWhat, you mean Birgit Malsack-Winkemann? An odd thing to call nothing good, unless you're in the AFD. :p