Mastodawn

famousringo Apr 5, 2025

@daringfireball always feels telling when somebody has nothing to say about what’s happening in Gaza except that they’d like everybody else to shut up about it.

Sorry if it hurts your feelings (or Bill Gates feelings) when people point out that children are being starved and aid workers are being executed. That must be so hard for you.

ebbi Apr 6, 2025

@famousringo he didn’t have ‘nothing to say’. He had a lot to say, in very few words:

@famousringo @daringfireball yup. smart about Apple, a complete fucking moron about butchering civilians, it seems

DaveP Apr 5, 2025

@daringfireball I’m w you Grubester

billyok Apr 5, 2025

@daringfireball Time and place, sure, okay. Calling them "insufferable" because they speak out on a cause that's closer to home for them than it is for you and me, though ... woof. But it's clear, after your bizarre posts last year about university protests, that if it was any other topic, you'd not have used "insufferable" to describe the people protesting it.

All the strawman arguments in the post are just comically bad, but actually, yes, maybe Microsoft should reconsider those ties.

Adam Fisher-Cox Apr 5, 2025

@daringfireball Microsoft employees who want to protest something about it should take to the streets because protesting their own company at one of their own events is not appropriate? I don’t think you have to have any opinion at all on the topic of protest to see that that is some tortured logic!

Sean Apr 6, 2025

@adamfishercox disagree. It’s like those “just stop oil” idiots who protest on high streets or museums when they should be protesting outside parliament and number 10 Downing Street.

@Strwpok @adamfishercox
It's far more effective to inconvenience a city than just a few corrupt political leaders.

Adam Fisher-Cox Apr 7, 2025

@Strwpok Ok so in that example you’re saying that 10 downing st is more appropriate because that’s where the decision makers are, right? So isn’t that an argument for protesting directly in front of the Microsoft decision makers at a Microsoft event?

Drew Pickard Apr 5, 2025

@daringfireball
MLK’s letter from the Birmingham jail.

tripleman, a 🇨🇦 in 🇩🇪Apr 5, 2025

@drewpickard This right here.

Michael Gifford-Santos Apr 6, 2025

At Microsoft’s 50th anniversary, an employee interrupted the CEOs to call out complicity in Gaza.

@gruber essentially says this wasn’t the time or place.

That’s the white moderate MLK warned about — “more devoted to order than to justice.” If you’re more upset about a disruption than a genocide, reflect.

@daringfireball

Mark Phippard Apr 5, 2025

@daringfireball probably harsher than I would say it but I otherwise agree. I do not see why Microsoft should not do business with Israel. Surely the same logic would say they cannot sell to US government or corporations that do business in Israel etc

mtc_uk Apr 5, 2025

@daringfireball ‘Should Microsoft sever all ties to Republican-led states that have made women’s reproductive healthcare illegal? […] Should Microsoft sever all ties to the U.S. federal government, which is now led by a mad tyrant […]?’

Well, yes.

@mtconleyuk @daringfireball but that would require moral courage, and be bad business! what a fucking neoliberal tool

Sulayman Apr 5, 2025

@daringfireball gonna have to disagree with you on this one. The company is taking part in a genocide by helping the military. It’s awful that Google and MS are involved in this and it undermines the entire company’s mission; good on any employees that speak out against the wrong direction the company took for profit.

Moltonlava Apr 5, 2025

@daringfireball What an odd take. Microsoft's own employees interrupting their silly self-congratulatory high five session to bring attention to real issues (which you don't have to agree with) took a lot of courage. Maybe MS should take Apple's approach to conflict avoidance and just not have live events anymore.

Jameson Apr 5, 2025

@daringfireball From another perspective, perhaps Microsoft’s ubiquity is exactly what should give it the courage to speak out against injustice, horror, etc. MS can call on those with whom they do business to aspire to a higher standard. They can speak out publicly because what are these partners going to do, switch to Linux?

AC Apr 6, 2025

@daringfireball Dunno, John, but I’m reminded of when Colin took a knee during the anthem on the 49ers’ sideline and everybody told him he was being disrespectful. If your protest is quiet, it seems like it’s not a protest at all.

John Gruber Apr 6, 2025

@ac Taking a knee in silence bothered the people it was intended to bother. Highly effective protest. Think about that.

AC Apr 6, 2025

@gruber Setting aside whether Colin’s protest was effective (I’m sure George Floyd’s family may think it wasn’t), I think the fact that Gates, Ballmer, and especially Nadella are *unbothered* by the protest is a scathing indictment of Microsoft as a company.

I get that it’s in Microsoft’s interest, as a massive supplier of government equipment and services, that Nadella in particular remains unbothered. But that doesn’t make the protest wrong, nor the venue improper.

Mutesplash Apr 6, 2025

@gruber @ac Except despite appearances it became highly disruptive and people wouldn't stop talking about it and that was the whole point?

@gruber @ac
And these current protests are bothering people like you, so mission accomplished.

John Gruber Apr 6, 2025

@freediverx @ac So is the point to bother me or to get Microsoft to, what, drop its business with Israel?

jack Apr 6, 2025

@gruber smh i don't understand people like this 🫣

@gruber @ac
I suggest spending less time reading Bloomberg and the Wall Street Journal and a little more time reading up on the history of civl rights and how nothing meaningful was ever accomplished without challenging the ruling class and breaking some shit.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/climate-protest-broadway-play/

@gruber
Here's an article to get you started.

Protests Are Supposed to Be an Inconvenience

Protests Are Supposed to Be an Inconvenience

Critics of the climate activists who interrupted a recent Broadway play are missing the point.

The Nation

Billrey May 1, 2025

@gruber @freediverx @ac I guess the point is to stop supporting those who murder children?

@gruber @ac are you not discussing this protest here & now? definition of successful, dur

Bed ⁂Apr 6, 2025

@daringfireball was it ok for IBM to sell machines to the Nazis to help catalogue Jews to round them up? Same logic?

@bed @daringfireball
You don't want to know John's answer to that question.

Michael Critz Apr 6, 2025

@daringfireball I don’t have a strong opinion on the Middle East.

It isn’t protest if it can only occur when convenient to ignore.

If not this time, then when are everyday people allowed to confront some of the most powerful and accountable men in the world to their faces?

I learned the scale of Israel’s surveillance state: ubiquitous. If folks had only yelled those facts to a brick wall in Seattle I wouldn’t have heard them.

Ian Apr 6, 2025

@daringfireball This was rough to read. Moments like these are exactly when people should protest — when eyes are on them and their point will be heard.

@wishfulwriting @daringfireball indeed. however, gruber is either a coward or just on the wrong side of history when it comes to genocide

Fleedar Apr 6, 2025

@daringfireball Google "Microsoft birthday" and just about every single result is about the party being interrupted, with context about how Microsoft AI is abetting genocide, so I'd say that's a pretty effective means of protest. And considering these were Microsoft employees who likely threw away their careers doing this, it's an absolutely psychotic take to say they were making the event about them.

ebbi Apr 6, 2025

@daringfireball people in the comments shouldn’t be surprised at this stance at all.

Gruber, would you have said the same about companies that were doing business with the Nazis?

@ebbi @daringfireball
Yes he would.

aardvark Apr 6, 2025

@daringfireball worth reading her full statement before dismissing her as some annoying self-absorbed person. No way to read it and not come to a completely different conclusion, imo.

Gabriel Jacoby-Cooper Apr 6, 2025

@daringfireball This is a decent take. I don’t think that describing them as “terrorist sympathizers” is so far-fetched given their effective demand that Israel give up on rescuing the hostages, and Israel’s war effort doesn’t rise to the level of malice that we’re seeing in the White House right now—it’s a false equivalence. You could do without the appeasement (see the other replies here; they’re still vilifying you regardless!), but the point about self-centered showboating is spot-on.

@daringfireball
Can't wait for your new political blog where you regale us with your wisdom and insights re: capitalism and colonialism in general, and the Palestinian genocide in particular.

https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/

Allie!Apr 6, 2025

@daringfireball @gruber hey John, I can see where you’re coming from but it is worth considering if the protesters may have been more informed about specific AI technology that impacted tactics which are really truly indefensible war crimes.

Here’s a really good article you may want to read for some context and then consider why an AI forum, even if Microsoft wasn’t involved in it, isn’t the worst place because AI war abstraction has directly led to extremely bad stuff:

‘Lavender’: The AI machine directing Israel’s bombing spree in Gaza

The Israeli army has marked tens of thousands of Gazans as suspects for assassination, using an AI targeting system with little human oversight and a permissive policy for casualties, +972 and Local Call reveal.

+972 Magazine

Allie!Apr 6, 2025

@daringfireball @gruber and I see your POV on doing business etc. and think your argument there is well reasoned, but I hope you’ll read the article because it was, at least for me, eye opening in an almost life changing way about the misuse of technology with specifics I haven’t seen good reporting on anywhere else.

I say all of this in good faith and only looking to inform not argue. Take care.

John Gruber Apr 6, 2025

@dotsie I’d there was any truth to this then the correct path would be for employees to whistleblow and reveal proof. Instead, I think these employees are going on the same bullshit with no proof.

Allie!Apr 6, 2025

@gruber yeah to be clear I wasn’t saying Microsoft was involved at all, just that AI technology was and doing it while the AI guy was speaking maybe from one angle had a point.

Leaving markets etc. I think your criticism is totally on point because those employees work for the employer and are enabling them to continue to do business, so it’s hypocritical like you said why do they work there.

Thanks for checking it out regardless.

It’s an unfortunate situation all around.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/25/technology/israel-gaza-ai.html

Allie!Apr 25, 2025

@gruber NYT confirms, finally:

“Yet even as Israel raced to develop the A.I. arsenal, deployment of the technologies sometimes led to mistaken identifications and arrests, as well as civilian deaths, the Israeli and American officials said.

Many of these efforts were a partnership between enlisted soldiers in Unit 8200 and reserve soldiers who work at tech companies such as Google, Microsoft and Meta, three people with knowledge of the technologies said. “

Israel’s A.I. Experiments in Gaza War Raise Ethical Concerns

Israel developed new artificial intelligence tools to gain an advantage in the war. The technologies have sometimes led to fatal consequences.

The New York Times

Allie!Apr 25, 2025

@gruber as far as company involvement, I agree with your point that whistleblowing would be the right move.

It’s unclear if these people went back to war and took knowledge they learned independently or if they leveraged proprietary company research.

That would require more in-depth knowledge, Google’s response makes sense but Microsoft and Meta didn’t comment on the record so, who knows.

It’s tragic regardless and a horrible misuse of technology. Just thought the context might help.

Billrey Apr 8, 2025

@daringfireball John, would you rather have thousands of children burn to death than to disturb Ballmer and Gates at a party?

tripleman, a 🇨🇦 in 🇩🇪Apr 8, 2025

@daringfireball

Zany Ninja Apr 9, 2025

@daringfireball

Even the Tank Man would be attacked by you I bet.

And yes, @gruber definitely speaks in Comic Sans.

...

(Post contains image altered by AI).

Luke Hand Apr 10, 2025

@daringfireball “Here's to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The troublemakers. The ones who don’t speak up about genocide at impolite moments...”
As a very longtime follower/listener/DF-tshirt wearer, I’m disappointed by this take, John. I hope you do some research and reflection about what is happening in Gaza, and that you then speak about it more.