deer witchAnyone tidy who “just does it” or “cleans as they go” should read the responses to the above post.
**Especially** if you have or might have neurodivergent children.
When y’all said “make systems for different spaces” and “try to see it as a kind or fun opportunity instead of a shame magnet” I don’t think you meant “make a keynote deck and treat an organized house as a design project” but I’ve never been normal sooooo assuming this still seems half as interesting tomorrow after sleep & breakfast—let’s fuckin gooooooo
I’m gonna have a section about what I learned from research, what I plan to research, a section about how failure and relapse is part of a change cycle, a section about timelines and deployment of additional bins/hooks/whiteboards/bulletin boards, and a section for how partner can support me instead of stepping in cPTSD triggers
Complete with a scheduled progress check in and an action item for reaching out to my therapist lmao
Complete with a scheduled progress check in and an action item for reaching out to my therapist lmao
mark burge
BrambleBearGrrrauling
Deep Breath; Start Again@moss I have a friend who has been treated for ADHD for years. She just went to a new psychiatrist who said she doesn't have ADHD, but rather has PTSD. He changed her meds and there has been a noticeable improvement in both her organization and concentration. Maybe recheck the diagnosis? YMMV.
Hdunagan
Gemini6Ice@moss my answer is unsatisfactory I know, but, to some degree, I’ve accepted that my mess will accumulate, I’ll clean it in a spree, and then it will accumulate again 😔😔
I’m not optimistic that there *is* a fix.
John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmit@moss Things have to get so messy/chaotic that even *I* get sick of looking at it and then do one big cleanup/tidying job...which is nice while it lasts but thanks to executive functioning deficits it's never long before entropy creeps back into the system....
VolineFucking entropy, man. It's the bane of existence.
Scavello@moss having a child. Their chaos keeps me in a moderately stressed state where my ADHD symptoms are driven down, so it makes it easier to get on cleaning things up, they also mess up the house past my tolerance level much quicker. However, they also ramp up my autistic symptoms and triggers too. Still working on that part.
Probably not a good answer, but thats what worked for me.
Tess Arnold@scavello @moss
It's the urgency.
Raising a child, especially a small one, instills a sense of urgency.
Urgency is one of our (ADHD folks) prime neural-motivators.
*(I believe this is one of the reasons, in days long before the recognition of neuro-divergence, some people's mental health fared much better if they had a bunch of kids. My parents both come from litters of 6-7, and I think it's the only reason any of them survived to adulthood.)
It's the urgency.
Raising a child, especially a small one, instills a sense of urgency.
Urgency is one of our (ADHD folks) prime neural-motivators.
*(I believe this is one of the reasons, in days long before the recognition of neuro-divergence, some people's mental health fared much better if they had a bunch of kids. My parents both come from litters of 6-7, and I think it's the only reason any of them survived to adulthood.)
@TessRants @moss true, in the putnum square of important and urgent tasks, nothing gets done outside of the urgent column XD
Wynke@wynke @moss yea somebody else commented to me about the urgency of having a child around, and that is definitely a big factor for me. Things like taxes have always fallen into the important-not-urgent pit for me and I have to really fish around to get it out and done, especially when I was freelancing and it was a lot more complicated.
Dave the Nomad 🇨🇦 
✊@moss Honestly?
Being a people-pleaser while being married for 13 years to someone that insists on cleanliness 😂
Micah
😷nio@moss having my own space I set up myself and nobody ever bullies me to clean it on their schedule
lizzy مثلية الله ☭ 
@moss medication
Stacey@moss A few things helped me (and my autistic spouse). Having less stuff. We spent a year doing a deep evaluation of all of our stuff, one area at a time and donated, sold, and removed. Having less made it more manageable. The second thing that helped me a lot was unfuck your habitat (UFYH)‘s method of doing 20/10. “I have to clean up this whole mess” can be overwhelming, but “I’m going to clean for 20 minutes then take a ten minute break” feels achievable to me. What do you struggle with most?
Willow (she/her)
Steve Brady@moss
A little bit of everything. Therapy, Adderall, Zen, NVC, and of course making lists and lists of lists.
A little bit of everything. Therapy, Adderall, Zen, NVC, and of course making lists and lists of lists.
Hazel@moss printing a bunch of gridfinity organization trays and putting up peg boards has been very helpful for me. There’s more to do still but approaching organization as a thing to get excited about and a thing I can do in whatever way works for me has been liberating.
Adrianna Tan@moss empathy and compassion for myself and learning that being organized and clean isn’t a morality issue, it’s a brain issue. Coming up with little hacks that work for me (all socks the same color, hooks for my clothes in the same places always). Doing things over and over to try to build a new routine and experimenting with my own ways to get things done
secretsloth@moss (have gone back to disorganized, but in the past?) Letting some small things go helped a lot. Taking stock of what I, personally, actually care about - for example, I do not care about making my bed, but I did care about having clean clothes that weren't wrinkled. Basically, not constantly worrying about things only other folks cared about let me shorten my list to a manageable level. Then I had lists every day, week, whatever, on post it notes that I would stick wherever I would see them.
Sen the Professional 
@moss I'm autistic, and have half of ADHD (i.e. I meet some criteria but not the rest, but the symptoms I do have respond to ADHD treatments) combined with learning disabilities and other cognitive issues.
I can't take stimulants, but one psychiatrist prescribed the max dose of Wellbutrin and it's helped a lot. It helps with "focus and motivation", i.e. it's *majorly* helped with executive function and has improved my focus enough to where I can touch computers for money.
@moss Didn't do a damn thing for my inattentional symptoms though :/
Also Wellbutrin is notorious for, if it's not the med for you, it's *really really* not the med for you, so this is not a recommendation. Wellbutrin worked for me, but mom was prescribed it for smoking cessation and it turned her life upside down & shook real hard. So yeah.
@epiceneVivant @moss
Wellbutrin works more on the dopamine system than on the serotonin system. When it works best for smoking cessation is usually when someone smokes to self-medicate undiagnosed ADHD.
Wellbutrin works more on the dopamine system than on the serotonin system. When it works best for smoking cessation is usually when someone smokes to self-medicate undiagnosed ADHD.
Bill Hooker@epiceneVivant
Yes -- tried Wellbutrin/bupropion for MDD but it put my anxiety (also have GAD) through the roof. Definitely one to try with care.
yelling jackal@moss ADHD & cPTSD here. Can't do habits so don't rely on them. Kindness is a huge one, reminding myself that I'll feel better and framing it as an act of love and kindness for future me is also good. Other than that trying to give everything its place (piles become boxes with a matching label, or a bin, or a hamper, cupboards get labels). And keeping tools everywhere! Each room has a cleaning box, and I try and save up and research for tools that make things easier. (My cleaning supplies are all refillable bottles that use a cleaning powder with water, for example - easier to buy lots of at a time and store. And we got a cheap steam cleaner for the non-carpet floors, mopping wasn't happening.)
I also keep analysing if my environment setup is working for me or if it needs to be changed. Is trickier but very important. (I think animal care has helped me with this. Every behaviour has a cause, so find it and change the root cause.)
I've also got a chore card thing divided into daily, weekly, monthly, long term, and once-off. The cards have completed and neutral sleeves, and have the chore description and estimated effort on the card. It's made from scrap cardboard and hot glue and the reason it works is I make all the cards, I can throw away the cards if I want, I can ignore them completely if I want, I can make more super easily, and if I do want to clean and have forgotten what I have to do, I can physically go through them and pick the thing I am most likely to be able to complete that moment. And then I can put it in the finished sleeve and feel accomplished. I've tried a lot of others but so far this one's lasted the longest.
I also keep analysing if my environment setup is working for me or if it needs to be changed. Is trickier but very important. (I think animal care has helped me with this. Every behaviour has a cause, so find it and change the root cause.)
I've also got a chore card thing divided into daily, weekly, monthly, long term, and once-off. The cards have completed and neutral sleeves, and have the chore description and estimated effort on the card. It's made from scrap cardboard and hot glue and the reason it works is I make all the cards, I can throw away the cards if I want, I can ignore them completely if I want, I can make more super easily, and if I do want to clean and have forgotten what I have to do, I can physically go through them and pick the thing I am most likely to be able to complete that moment. And then I can put it in the finished sleeve and feel accomplished. I've tried a lot of others but so far this one's lasted the longest.
Cetraria@moss
Altering my environment with hampers/ containers/trash bins/hooks in convenient locales.
Setting it up so I have tools with which to do 2-5 minutes of cleaning as I'm able and inspired without having to go to another room.
Using power tools or hacks as required/available.
Hiring or asking someone to do bigger tasks/deep cleaning for or with me.
Donating much of my stuff (I'm getting ready for a second round of purging).
Adjusting my expectations for the thoroughness of jobs (I'm just not able to do a whole load of laundry or the whole bathroom in one go, but I can do one part of a task at a time).
Removing from my life the partner who was traumatizing me/making symptoms and mess worse.
Altering my environment with hampers/ containers/trash bins/hooks in convenient locales.
Setting it up so I have tools with which to do 2-5 minutes of cleaning as I'm able and inspired without having to go to another room.
Using power tools or hacks as required/available.
Hiring or asking someone to do bigger tasks/deep cleaning for or with me.
Donating much of my stuff (I'm getting ready for a second round of purging).
Adjusting my expectations for the thoroughness of jobs (I'm just not able to do a whole load of laundry or the whole bathroom in one go, but I can do one part of a task at a time).
Removing from my life the partner who was traumatizing me/making symptoms and mess worse.
Sabrina Web 
📎@moss I admit that I'm still struggling, but gamification seems to work for me, for now
Duck Marshall 🚲@moss The Life Changing Magic of Tidying by Marie Kondo, actually! It's not once and done like she says it'll be but it's a significant improvement on how my home was before! Less stuff, now, and having a place for everything means less decision fatigue due t putting things away
Also, make it easier to put things away than to take them out in the first place ;)
Winter TrabexHmm, I guess it's about habits. Once you get used to something, you just want to keep doing it.
babyaprilgatorit me!
what worked? tricky question
one huge thing was learning how my anxious brain is actually calmed by clean & tidy spaces. by lack of clutter. once I understood that, my motivation for dealing with stuff became intrinsic & therefore not something I fought as an external mandate
does that make sense?
@moss
I used to tell people to "learn to engineer around your shortcomings." This was before I was diagnosed w/ ADHD & CPTSD. I'm in the process of learning how all of those behaviors were an attempt to survive in a world that kept telling me there was something wrong w/ me.
Many of them are still useful, but now they can be about kindness to myself rather than conformity to the "norm."
(Also, I'm a middle-aged, college educated, cis, hetero, white male; I recognize the difference that makes.)
I used to tell people to "learn to engineer around your shortcomings." This was before I was diagnosed w/ ADHD & CPTSD. I'm in the process of learning how all of those behaviors were an attempt to survive in a world that kept telling me there was something wrong w/ me.
Many of them are still useful, but now they can be about kindness to myself rather than conformity to the "norm."
(Also, I'm a middle-aged, college educated, cis, hetero, white male; I recognize the difference that makes.)
@moss
I started keeping a bullet journal. Thought it would help me be more productive. It showed me exactly how much I was already doing every day, and it was already too much. Helped me understand part of my exhaustion, but also to recognize that I wasn't "lazy."
(I recommend the book: "Laziness Does Not Exist". It helped me understand and begin to learn to be kinder to myself.)
Getting things out of my head & into physical reality helps me see the actual shape & time requirements of things.
I started keeping a bullet journal. Thought it would help me be more productive. It showed me exactly how much I was already doing every day, and it was already too much. Helped me understand part of my exhaustion, but also to recognize that I wasn't "lazy."
(I recommend the book: "Laziness Does Not Exist". It helped me understand and begin to learn to be kinder to myself.)
Getting things out of my head & into physical reality helps me see the actual shape & time requirements of things.
@moss
Also, I frequently use the "being kind to my future self/ might as well" cognitive framing:
Thinking about future tasks, or the amount of them, is often overwhelming for me and leads to paralysis or disassociating. Being kind to future me entails feeling that overwhelm and, instead of zoning out, finding the easiest thing I can do at the moment to make it less overwhelming later. Sometimes, that just looks like creating a process/ step list of what order tasks have to happen in later.
Also, I frequently use the "being kind to my future self/ might as well" cognitive framing:
Thinking about future tasks, or the amount of them, is often overwhelming for me and leads to paralysis or disassociating. Being kind to future me entails feeling that overwhelm and, instead of zoning out, finding the easiest thing I can do at the moment to make it less overwhelming later. Sometimes, that just looks like creating a process/ step list of what order tasks have to happen in later.
@moss
The "might as well" part dovetails nicely into being kind to future me:
If I'm shifting from being stationary to moving (or vice-versa) and there's something in my immediate area that's connected w/ a future task, I'll see if there's a tiny bit of it I can do while I'm transitioning.
Am I walking past the laundry room?
Can I put clothes in the dryer on the way?
Is there a pile of books on the coffee table?
Might as well take one of them with me to my office.
That kind of thing.
The "might as well" part dovetails nicely into being kind to future me:
If I'm shifting from being stationary to moving (or vice-versa) and there's something in my immediate area that's connected w/ a future task, I'll see if there's a tiny bit of it I can do while I'm transitioning.
Am I walking past the laundry room?
Can I put clothes in the dryer on the way?
Is there a pile of books on the coffee table?
Might as well take one of them with me to my office.
That kind of thing.
@moss
In truth, nothing works 100% of the time.
That's where learning to be gentle with myself becomes important.
First off, I have to remind myself that shame is a shitty motivator and that all of the "tough love" bullshit is just abuse and, more to the point, has not worked for any of my life thus far.
It's the same way terrorism doesn't work: it creates a momentary crisis-related burst of energy, but when that dwindles, nothing has really changed.
Understanding that has been a key practice.
In truth, nothing works 100% of the time.
That's where learning to be gentle with myself becomes important.
First off, I have to remind myself that shame is a shitty motivator and that all of the "tough love" bullshit is just abuse and, more to the point, has not worked for any of my life thus far.
It's the same way terrorism doesn't work: it creates a momentary crisis-related burst of energy, but when that dwindles, nothing has really changed.
Understanding that has been a key practice.
@moss
Then, I remind myself:
"If that bullshit doesn't work, maybe its opposite will."
Whatever that opposite ends up being in your head, it's definitely not nothing.
It's certainly not paralysis.
But it just might be useful and healing.
You have to be aware of a choice before you can make it...
...
And I'm getting into weeds with this. So, best to stop here.
Then, I remind myself:
"If that bullshit doesn't work, maybe its opposite will."
Whatever that opposite ends up being in your head, it's definitely not nothing.
It's certainly not paralysis.
But it just might be useful and healing.
You have to be aware of a choice before you can make it...
...
And I'm getting into weeds with this. So, best to stop here.
StevenSavage (he/him)@TessRants @moss good productivity habits tell you when to stop.
@StevenSavage @moss
This is a thing I wished I'd learned much earlier in life.
Better late than never.
This is a thing I wished I'd learned much earlier in life.
Better late than never.
Iris Young (he/they/she) (PhD)@moss not totally sure I fit the description, but something that I've found helpful: I tend to accumulate "prerequisites" for tasks that stack until they're untenable, and recognizing that pattern allowed me to find places to break it. For example, making dinner doesn't start with food prep, it starts with cleaning the kitchen, and that might involve taking out the trash, which I'd prefer to do after [task that generates trash], and so on... you see the problem. Noticing when that's happening lets me say, wait, that's too much but I still want dinner, so where in this train of events can I jump in even if it's not optimal? And that means I don't just wait until I have energy to do it the optimal way, which is usually never. (It's still a battle to be realistic about what I actually have energy for and accept the compromise, but I also treat that as a skill I'm developing, which helps reframe failures as learning/progress.)
abby@moss my parents didn't do diagnoses and I hate going to the doctors but I'm messy af and the Afrominimalist's guide to living with less was one of the kindest books I've read on the subject matter that really helped me understand why I was the way I was not just "clean like this"
two slightly distorted guitars@moss some people have said marrying someone who makes them clean - for me, divorcing the person who shamed me about mess (and frequently re-randomised all our stuff) changed everything for the better!
Thinking of my future self as a person I want to look after and do nice things for. I used to pile up horrible jobs I didn't want to think about and forget I had to do them, then find a bad surprise later on. Now I can wash that greasy skillet right away so that my future self doesn't have to.
@moss Future self also gets given meals prepared ahead of time, clean floors now and then, clothes that are easy to find, etc - and when I become my future self, I really appreciate my past self for doing those things.
I am horribly averse to the concept of habits and I hate lists. It's okay if I do things chaotically as long as I get the important things done. I know I need to wash clothes at least weekly and feed myself several times a day; I give myself permission to do those things (...)
@moss (...) chaotically according to my whims. And sometimes it works better than other times but nobody's berating me for it.
Also, ADHD medication made a huge difference.
Graham Sutherland / Polynomial@moss I have only had limited success in a few cases, but:
1. labelled locations for things, with the label being trivially visible and readable
2. translucent and transparent drawers to help counteract the object impermanence
3. removing problem storage areas entirely, e.g. I'm the main cook in the house and I'm terrible for veg going in the fridge's crisper drawers and just rotting away for months because I don't see them when I open the fridge, so we don't use the drawers any more.
4. open discussion, understanding, and compromise with my (neurotypical) wife. this is such a broad and important one but helping her understand how my brain works and what my limitations are was so critical. not just for her to understand me, but for me to understand what her most important needs and wants are in terms of tidiness, and why those things affect her. common ground helps a lot for devising and communicating sustainable ways to keep things tidy.
@moss 5. jumping on the "I'm gonna tidy some shit up" impulse when it arrives at random. sometimes my brain gives me that opportunity and it's important to take it.
6. small tasks, short term but reasonable deadlines. if I'm told I need to do something this week it isn't getting done. if I'm told I need to tidy up a whole room in one go I'm going to be miserable. tidy my desk by 6pm, and it's 4pm? suddenly I can do it. leverages immediacy and urgency to get my brain to play ball.
@moss (6 often results in 5 because starting a job is the hardest part)
7. not too many things at once. if I have 8 jobs all listed together my brain focuses on all of them at once and I'm distracted and nothing gets done. three simple and clear jobs, one at a time? sorted. having them written down helps too.
8. fuck todo lists. they don't work and are just a record of failure that make me feel like shit. counterproductive.
@moss 9. a water bottle. this is kind of a curveball but if I have a water bottle on my desk I drink more water (making my brain less bad at functioning) and I tend to get up more to fill it up which reduces the likelihood of ending up in hyperfocus and not getting things done. more of knock-on benefit for tidying but still important.
@moss I am better at it than I used to be, but I am not, and will probably never be, actually good at it.
It has always been the case for me that if I perceive something as 'necessary enough', I can Do The Thing. However, this only very rarely occurs when it's just in my own interests. Someone else has to depend on me.
So, the one thing that changed for me was that I had a child.