Mastodawn

Happy international men's day!

Reminder to be more like Black men!

Black men:
* Are seen as more masculine
* See themselves as more masculine
* But we do more stuff considered feminine?🙂🙃
* And no one says a damn thing!

Because this whole masculinity thing is made up and a scam. Stop hurting yourself!

https://hachyderm.io/@mekkaokereke/113051689610950204

No seriously, stop hurting yourself. Black men have one of the lowest age adjusted suicide rates.👍🏿 White men? One of the highest.

mekka okereke :verified: (@[email protected])

@[email protected] If you look at political surveys of how people feel about big issues, Black men align much more closely to women, than men overall. 🤯 * Should men participate in childcare? * Should you wear a mask during a pandemic? * Is it OK for men to hug their male friends? * Is it OK for men to wear pink? * Should abortion be legal? * Is it ok for tampons and pads to be in a men's bathroom? * How concerned are you about the environment and global warming? * Has feminism helped or hurt women?

Hachyderm.io

craignicol Nov 24, 2024

@mekkaokereke I wonder if that's a result of Black men traditionally having many more female role models than White men? So strength and success are not seen as purely male attributes? There's plenty of white women who were written out of history in favour of their husbands or colleagues.

I think it has more to do with the puritanical influence on US culture.

The toxicity is not a white thing, so much as a white American thing.

For example, men in Sweden or Finland are as involved in childcare as Black men in the US are. Men in Europe are much more likely to wear pink, eat gelato in public (gasp!), hug their friends, etc. as a result, European men are much less lonely than American men.

https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2024/03/middle-aged-americans-lonelier

So Black men are unique in this regard *In America*.

This is something that would be weird to a lot of European men, but there are a lot of American dads that:
* Don't know their kid's teacher's name
* Don't know their kid's doctor's name
* Don't know their kid's food allergies

Not divorced dads! Dads that live with the kids🤦🏿‍♂️

A lot of US dads are feeling proud because "Yes, some dads don't know this stuff. But I'm one of the good ones! I know this stuff!"

And a lot of European dads just read that in disbelief, slightly horrified.

Horrified European dad:

😮 If you don't know your kid's allergies, how can you ever fix them something to eat?!

😮 Don't you see your kid's doctor every time you take them to an appointment? Don't you learn this by accident/osmosis after like the 3rd visit?

😮How do you not know the kid's teacher's name? Isn't it on like, the report cards? Again, don't you learn this by accident with no effort?

Many US dads:

🤷🏼‍♂️ My wife feeds the kids. And me!

🤷🏼‍♂️ Wife takes care of that.

🤷🏼‍♂️ Wife.

craignicol Nov 24, 2024

@mekkaokereke UK feels like it's stuck between Europe and US on this (like many other things). Definitely feels like a generational shift, my parents generation would definitely be the US way, the generations after me are generally the European way in the majority, and Gen X me still feels like I stick out like a sore thumb because I'm the only dad in the mums group - even though I meet other dads at the school.

Ben Lings Nov 24, 2024

@craignicol @mekkaokereke I’ve noticed a big shift since shared parental leave came in (UK). From my colleagues (IT consultancy, mostly male): Before, most (all?) dads would take the statutory 2 weeks paternity leave immediately after the birth. After, most would take 3 months of shared leave after the mother had taken the first 6 months.

craignicol Nov 24, 2024

@ben_lings @mekkaokereke I took extended paternity before it came in, but that took a lot of planning, and a bit of luck that it crossed Christmas and a reset of annual leave at new year. I'm sure that played a big part in bonding, so I'm glad the new dads have greater access to that valuable opportunity.

Stacey Cornelius 🇨🇦Nov 24, 2024

@craignicol If I may: Generations/demographics are not a monolith, so I sincerely believe we need to get away from that. As in, right now. Out loud, and everywhere.

Focus on culture. On values. On shared beliefs.

Totally get the "sore thumb" feeling, Craig, at being the only dad in the mums group.

I hope we can turn "generations" on its head to form community across societal/demographic/fake constructs to gather together and make a difference.

Also, good on you for being a glitch in the Matrix! (writing from Canada)

craignicol Nov 24, 2024

@StaceyCornelius @mekkaokereke I agree it's not a monolith, but as pointed out elsewhere in this thread, there's a definite positive change following the introduction of longer paternity leave, which means that more men have an opportunity that they didn't have before the change. I'm sure many of my generation would have wanted the chance (I can think of a few of my friends for example) so it's not an attitude change, it's an opportunity change.

Stacey Cornelius 🇨🇦Nov 24, 2024

@craignicol Huge respect to you and your friends who are talking about it. The opportunities exist in a large part because of you.

craignicol Nov 24, 2024

@StaceyCornelius @mekkaokereke we all need to be good scouts and leave this place in a better state than we found it, so more involved dads, stronger labour rights, and women's rights, and civil rights, and LGBT rights, and less pollution.

And teach the next generation why it matters and how to get it. We need to get there together, but we need strength, enthusiasm and wisdom, so all generations need to work together.

Stacey Cornelius 🇨🇦Nov 24, 2024

@craignicol I love this so much. 100% agree. Thank you.

Steve Loughran Nov 24, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol what is this "see a doctor" thing that you talk about?

@stevel @craignicol

😢

craignicol Nov 24, 2024

@mekkaokereke there's definitely a stronger gender balance in Scandinavia and it's spread to some places in Europe, but certainly not places like Italy, which has a dramatically low birth rate partially because women just won't (see also the 4b appropriation in USA, but Italy's objection is more individual than organised)

craignicol Nov 24, 2024

@mekkaokereke interestingly, Sweden's male suicide rate is comparable to USA, but Germany, Denmark, Norway and UK are much lower https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/suicide-rate-by-country

Suicide Rate by Country 2026

Detailed data on suicide rate by country, offering insights into the prevalence of suicide across different nations.

World Population Review

Male, yes.

White male, no. US white male rate is much higher.

craignicol Nov 24, 2024

@mekkaokereke you can see just how low Italy's birth rate is here. Like Japan, the birth rate is well below the replacement level, so the population is shrinking leaving a shrinking younger population to look after a growing older population. I can see this happening in the USA too, but that's going to put a lot more pressure on an already fragile white male population, which is not going to help the numbers in the graphs you presented.

I have zero sympathy for any country lamenting "population decline." Population decline is not a real thing.

"Replacement rate" is not a real thing either.

Every country on earth with a shrinking population, could solve all of their population shaping problems with immigration.

There is no shortage of people that want to be citizens of your country. There's only racism and xenophobia.

craignicol Nov 24, 2024

@mekkaokereke I absolutely agree. Especially if your country is the one supplying the weapons or profiting from the fossil fuels that's making their country uninhabitable.

UK is failing its international obligations on all counts in that regard.

craignicol Nov 24, 2024

@mekkaokereke but the white men are busy blaming the immigrants, which is only making their own situation worse. Like most populist policies.

@mekkaokereke @craignicol Yep. The meaningful number is How Many Humans on Planet Earth? When it slides below carrying capacity and decent lives, maybe authorities might look at policies.

Policies that can help include access to healthcare and support for reproductive rights. People should be able to choose to have a child or not.

Currently far too many humans aren't getting their needs for water, shelter and food met while a few super wealthy people have too much.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_capacity

Carrying capacity - Wikipedia

D Ingram Nov 25, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol The countries lamenting decline also ignore the wealth transfer to older generations that means many people can't afford to have children even when they want them.

Both causes can be solved by opening hearts and wallets.

BeeCycling has moved Nov 26, 2024

@ingram @mekkaokereke @craignicol Quite. Can't complain that young people aren't having enough children when your society is actively hostile to families, with issues like unaffordable housing, no statutory leave for new parents, expensive healthcare, expensive childcare etc. Actually do something to make it financially viable for people to have children before complaining about it.

Rufus J. Cooter Nov 25, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol (This is where I note that many problems are not unsolvable mysteries, but have been studied extensively. Think there's too many illegal immigrants? Let's talk about making it easier to immigrate legally! There's too many homeless? Let's talk housing prices, supply, and zoning! Drug addiction is a big problem? Let's talk about social services, treatment, and harm mitigation. Population decline? How can we help young people afford to start families? etc...)

cerement Nov 25, 2024

@RufusJCooter @mekkaokereke @craignicol

(on the flip side, multiple studies reporting crime goes down, education goes up, income goes up when you allow immigrants into your communities – even back to Poland surviving the Black Death because of *gasp* immigrants)

Medea Vanamonde🏳️‍⚧️ ♀Nov 25, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol the majority here think people like you are 21-30% of the population.
When it’s more like 12%
I remember when it was 16%.
It’s more projection on their part.

They think we are 21% .
We are maybe 1%

mk30 Nov 25, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol agreed

S.P.Zeidler Nov 25, 2024

@mekkaokereke xenophobia is a hard problem. I had something of an aha moment watching some villagers doing xenophobia towards a stranger, who was Not From Here - but from the next middle-sized town. All of 40km distance. It basically needs hacks around humans' bugs.

Ronan Nov 25, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol thanks for pointing this out. It hadn't occurred to me in such stark terms. Totally agree

S Bodzin, Real American 🇺🇸Nov 25, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol the US & Canada have long outsourced their birthing, especially to Latin America. Europe could do the same with Africa but they're too racist

marymessall Nov 25, 2024

@stevenbodzin @mekkaokereke @craignicol "Outsourced their birthing to Latin America" smells too much like "Great Replacement" to me.

For complex reasons, Latin America has higher birth rates than the US and Canada, and for a long time we let some people come here if they wanted here. That's all.

Matt McIrvin Nov 25, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol A few decades from now the whole world is going to run out of countries making lots of babies.

But we're not there yet. Won't be for a while. And anyone who is marginally less racist now is going to benefit when the global shortage comes. Is there any country in the world that will learn? Dunno. I was hoping the US actually had a better shot than most of Europe but I guess not.

Martin Vermeer FCD Nov 25, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol It really is as simple as that.

Dmitry Borodaenko Nov 25, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol One notable exception to that rule might be China. The rest of the world has to get a whole lot worse before there's hundreds of millions of people who'd want to become citizens of PRC.

Licho Nov 25, 2024

@mekkaokereke
No sympathy to any country too. Imo the "population decline" is a sign of a deeper problem and whoever migrates to a late stage capitalist western country will face the same fate within a generation. The first generation might still be healthy but the second one will be subjected to the same forces that stop the current population from reproducing - the utterly inhuman environment: social fabric breakdown, instincts vulnerabilities exploited, the diet.

People are like any other organism. It won't reproduce in extreme conditions. Like they often celebrate a success of reproducing an endangered species in captivity after 30 years of attempts. Humans in captivity won't reproduce either. We are in captivity now.

Nazani Nov 25, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol

Population decline *should* be a real thing. Our "lifeboat" is getting smaller.
https://populationconnection.org/about-us/

About Population Connection

Founded in 1968, Population Connection (formerly Zero Population Growth) is the largest grassroots population organization in the U.S.

Population Connection

Wulfy—Speaker to the machines Nov 26, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol

Counterpoint: Depopulating third world is bad for the nations that are losing folks with determination and/or education

Also you're right about the xenophobia.

@n_dimension @craignicol

Counter counter point: It's fine. We'll make more.

Wulfy—Speaker to the machines Nov 26, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol

Verner Von Braun said;

"The human brain is the best computer we can build with unskilled labour"

Lana Sinapayen Nov 26, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol Live from a 14 years immigrant to Japan: you are correct

canusfeminacanis Nov 26, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol
Largely, I agree with you.

To ignore individual difficulties in learning a new culture and/or language, starting over, however, is a bit naive. Not all migrants make the cognitive shift.] Result: culture clash. Immigration should always be on a case-by-case basis.

@canusfeminacanis @craignicol

"Culture clash" is usually just another way of saying "incumbents being racist and xenophobic."

canusfeminacanis Nov 26, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol

Perhaps too frequently, but not universally. Generalizations aren't really helpful when discussing the subject, btw.

Thought: there are 'white' people who don't transplant into other 'white' cultures.

@canusfeminacanis @craignicol

Generalisations are very useful. Especially when talking about this topic. And I said, "usually," not "universally."

"Sure, a few people from country X is good, but too many will lead to a culture clash!" Is something that racists and xenophobes say. Very often.

But if you want to get specific, I'm happy to hear examples of "culture clash" that aren't just racism and xenophobia, usually by the incumbents, but sometimes by the migrants.

canusfeminacanis Nov 26, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol
Some Brits come here, and can't adapt to a different culture. Some Americans, too, They move back home when they can.

I came here as a migrant. Any challenges I face are for me to deal with. I can't control what other people do, or how other people think. Only me.

@canusfeminacanis @craignicol

No. That's a massive goalpost move.

"I tried this country and didn't like it so I'm going back home!" Is fine. That's something normal people say. 👍🏿

"We need to limit immigration, because you might have 'culture clash'!" is something racists and xenophobes say. 🙅🏿‍♂️

canusfeminacanis Nov 26, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol
Well, you think it's normal. I think it's normal. You'd be gobsmacked to find out how often the discontented don't, regardless of race. :o

Like I said, immigration needs to be on a case-by-case basis. Generalizations don't make good immigration policy.

@canusfeminacanis @craignicol

I'm super confused by what point you're trying to make.

1. Who is suggesting that immigration just be universally let everyone in? I didn't come close to saying that. Immigration is always case by case. How else would it be done?

2. But "culture clash" is a silly, racist, xenophobic thing to try to base it on. It makes very little sense.

I'm making a point about "number of visas allowed per year." Any country complaining about birth rates, should increase it.

yoshir Nov 26, 2024

@mekkaokereke
If people in your country do not want to reproduce it is a problem. But absolutely, stop being xenophobic.
@craignicol

Brian "bex" Exelbierd Nov 26, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol I agree with you 100% on immigration. It fixes a ton of macro and micro issues. It doesn’t fix is the social order where those in generations larger than their successor generations won’t have the same familial access and “care” as their parents had. This requires more societal change than “don’t be racist.” Most societies poorly manage large numbers of lonely aging people. We need to fix that. I think immigration could be key here too.

@bexelbie @craignicol

Do they though?

Isn't most of the problem that:

1) Boys dump almost all end of life care, and the associated trauma and grieving, on their sisters?

2) We prefer to have centibillionaires rather than social safety nets for our parents?

3) That we don't have many multi-generational households anymore? We all want to move to the city to get an apartment and live by ourselves like big boys and girls?

Aren't there places that still have multi-generational homes?

Brian "bex" Exelbierd Nov 26, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol

What I am getting at is that a new influx of people can positively impact many dynamics, however it doesn't create new "family bonds." If People-A stop having as many kids, more members of People-A have decreasing or no members to make a multi-generational home with. New People-B came for a lot of great reasons, but "needing more grandparents" wasn't one of them. Cultures which believe in #1 and #2 already have a problem and having more babies ain't going to fix it.

Darrell Hilliker 👨‍🦯♾️📡Nov 27, 2024

@kevinrj @craignicol @mekkaokereke Yes! All of this! Thank you for making it all so blatantly clear.

Jürgen Hubert Nov 27, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol And there's a _lot_ of racism and xenophobia. The German fascist party #AfD is doubling down on that, emphasizing a "return to the traditional family" while wanting to deport millions of immigrants - whether they have German citizenship or not. And too many of the other German political parties try to present themselves as "tough on immigration" in order to appease the fascist voters, a strategy which has never worked.

craignicol Nov 27, 2024

@juergen_hubert @mekkaokereke does Germany have the same problem as UK where it's as much the fascist press as the fascist voters the politicians are chasing, because no-one hates foreigners as much as the newspaper owners

Jürgen Hubert Nov 27, 2024

@craignicol @mekkaokereke Some newspapers and media are okay, but there are definitely some very influential newspapers who are pandering to the fascists. This guy is probably the worst offender.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_D%C3%B6pfner

Mathias Döpfner - Wikipedia

Sam Wronski Nov 30, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol "population decline" is just how people say "eugenics" now I think.

Advanced Persistent Teapot Nov 24, 2024

@mekkaokereke @craignicol wait what the fuck? Eating gelato in public is bad how?