ntonnaettSep 19, 2024
Prof. Sam Lawler

Oh look, Starlink is continuing to screw up the sky in every way possible.

"Second-Generation Starlink Satellites Leak 30 Times More Radio Interference, Threatening Astronomical Observations"

https://www.astron.nl/starlink-satellites/

It's going to be "hilarious" when Starlink messes up the radio sky so badly that radio astronomers can't even use quasars to calibrate GPS anymore. There are so many consequences from all these stupid, cheaply built, disposable satellites. https://www.universetoday.com/105160/navigating-the-cosmos-by-quasar/

Second-Generation Starlink Satellites Leak 30 Times More Radio Interference, Threatening Astronomical Observations | ASTRON

Observations with the LOFAR (Low Frequency Array) radio telescope last year showed that first generation Starlink satellites emit unintended radio waves that can hinder astronomical observations.

ASTRON
Sep 18, 2024 at 1:10pmWeb
Show threadwikiyuSep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets so they are enchancing market for their own products? Sending more labs/telescopes into space -> outside of musks shit -> using musks rockets?
Show threadplSep 18, 2024
@wikiyu @sundogplanets even with Starship, Musk can't provide equal capability as existing ground based telescopes.
Show threadProf. Sam LawlerSep 18, 2024
@pl @wikiyu A good rule of thumb is a space-based telescope will cost 10x as much for a 10x smaller telescope with 10-year-old technology (because it takes time to build and can usually never be upgraded). Also something like 100-1000x the carbon emissions.
Show threadDisplay NameSep 19, 2024
@sundogplanets @pl @wikiyu
And unfortunately none of these will stop them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Show threadOlsonSep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets I am naive about spacecraft. Do these satellites have a way to be brought safely back to earth, or are they stuck in space until they break apart and fall to earth?
Show threadSmart FoxSep 18, 2024
@volcano @sundogplanets since every idiot with too much money wants to put a ridicioulus amount of satelites in orbit i think the Situation is only getting worse.
Show threaddiskySep 18, 2024
@SmartFox @volcano @sundogplanets Space is, after all, the final frontier. And if you're in America, frontiers mean MONEY
Show thread~Sep 18, 2024
@volcano @sundogplanets they have thrusters to avoid other satellites and debris, and they carry enough propellant to deorbit at end of life and burn up safely in the atmosphere
Show thread~Sep 18, 2024
@volcano @sundogplanets it's not foolproof, if something smaller than we can see smacks it just right and we lose communication, or the thrusters are damaged, it may get stuck in orbit indefinitely. But that hasn't happened yet despite an absurd number of these already in orbit for years. Several hundred have already reached end of life and deorbited successfully, too
Show threaddoneSep 18, 2024
@modulusshift @volcano @sundogplanets also burn up “safely in the atmosphere” means that it’s literally being incinerated and pumped into the atmosphere, distributing harmful substances such as heavy metals throughout the planet. This pollution can have other unforeseen consequences like the radio interference we see here, and other unforeseen consequences such as interfering with migratory birds due to fluctuations in magnetic permeability in the atmosphere, etc.
Show threadanlomedadSep 18, 2024

@done @modulusshift @volcano @sundogplanets

And the burning aluminum from the 2t of a deorbiting satellite reacts with stuff in the atmosphere, the end product kills the ozone layer.
Starlink wants to have 40k satellites. When these have a lifetime of 5years as is common, the aluminum oxide injection per year matches or exceeds that of burning up meteorites.

The ozone layer is important for deflecting incoming heat. Less ozone=more global warming, more Antarctic ice loss.

It is deliberate neglect of responsibility by the subsequent US administrations not putting Musk and Starlink on a tight leash. And the world suffers. Again.

Show threadderptronSep 18, 2024
@modulusshift @volcano @sundogplanets The Moties would be appalled. "You are really going to miss that metal later..."
Show threadnullagentSep 18, 2024

@volcano @sundogplanets

For the most part YES. Most of these satellites have ion thrusters which should allow them to be deorbited on command. The orbit these are on will also naturally decay after 5yrs if the satellites stop occasionally boosting their orbits.

This is all a bit uncharted air control problem the so it's probably a bit dangerous to bring a lot down at once.

Show threadIsaac Ji KuoSep 18, 2024

@nullagent @volcano @sundogplanets

Yes, they will mostly burn up in the upper atmosphere and are unlikely to kill people via direct impact. However, these large numbers of satellites will deplete the ozone layer and kill and blind people via increased rates of cancer and cataracts.

The chances of SpaceX/Elon Musk caring are ... I dunno ... close to zero. Even if government regulation demands that they do something about it, I expect they will simply defy the law.

Show threadSamuel LeuenbergerSep 18, 2024
@isaackuo @nullagent @volcano @sundogplanets "these large numbers of satellites will deplete the ozone layer and kill and blind people via increased rates of cancer and cataracts" 🤔
[citation needed]
Show threadIsaac Ji KuoSep 18, 2024

@Leuenberg @nullagent @volcano @sundogplanets

Reference re massive numbers of satellite reentries depleting ozone layer:

https://www.space.com/megaconstellations-threat-to-ozone-layer-recovery

Satellite megaconstellations threaten ozone layer recovery, study confirms

Within the next 30 years, concentrations of ozone-damaging aluminum oxides in the atmosphere could increase by 650%.

Space
Show threadSamuel LeuenbergerSep 18, 2024
@isaackuo @nullagent @volcano @sundogplanets Interesting, but your assertion is lacking a lot of conditionnal. From the author of the study : "any conclusions related to environmental impacts are premature".
Show threadIsaac Ji KuoSep 18, 2024

@Leuenberg @nullagent @volcano @sundogplanets

The question I was replying to was asking whether it was possible to *safely* remove these large numbers of Starlink satellites.

In order to do something _safely_ it is imperative to err on the side of caution. If the extent of the damage to the ozone layer is not certain, you don't get to assume it's negligible and say you're doing the safe thing.

Show threadSamuel LeuenbergerSep 18, 2024
@isaackuo @nullagent @volcano @sundogplanets Then wouldn't the reasonable answer be : There could be detrimental effects so we can't say if it's possible (to deorbit safely). Instead of asserting that there *will* be an impact to the ozone layer and that this impact *will* cause cancers ?
Show threadIsaac Ji KuoSep 18, 2024

@Leuenberg @nullagent @volcano @sundogplanets

We know there will be an impact to the ozone layer, and this will have health effects. The uncertainty is over the extent.

Show threaddoneSep 18, 2024
@Leuenberg @isaackuo @nullagent @volcano @sundogplanets while your skepticism is reasonable, people studying these topics said similar things about carbon dioxide emissions, PFCs, etc, and turned out to be correct, once we started facing the consequences. Many experts continue to urge caution, but caution doesn’t make anyone money. Another hypothetical for your consideration: https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2024GL109280 1/?
Show threaddoneSep 18, 2024
@Leuenberg @isaackuo @nullagent @volcano @sundogplanets the physics is already well understood, why must the experiment to determine the validity of the cautious position be jeopardizing the only environmental system we have (the only known habitable planet accessible to us, the Earth as an organism) to test the validity of the hypothesis? Because of profits? Money is an illusion, power at the cost of sustainability is foolishness.
Show threadSamuel LeuenbergerSep 18, 2024
@done @isaackuo @nullagent @volcano @sundogplanets A proper study of these potential impact would go a long way toward appropriate regulations.
Show threadIsaac Ji KuoSep 18, 2024

@Leuenberg @done @nullagent @volcano @sundogplanets

The important thing, from the perspective of SpaceX, is to quickly do it before there's a "proper" study, and if there is a study to say it isn't a "proper" study, and to blah blah blah ...

Can't you just admit that they obviously don't care? If they did care at all, they would have performed a study themselves, beforehand. Even if this was a sham study for lying propaganda purposes, at least it would have given the appearance of caring.

Show threadSamuel LeuenbergerSep 20, 2024
@isaackuo @done @nullagent @volcano @sundogplanets I totally agree that SpaceX certainly don't give a rat about the potential environmental externalities of their activities (and let's be honest, exactly like any other businesses).
My contention with your assertion is that on the other hand, you cannot make a statement of harm (environmental or health) without a reasonable evidence, which is obvioulsy lacking here.
Show threadIsaac Ji KuoSep 20, 2024

@Leuenberg @done @nullagent @volcano @sundogplanets

I disagree with your assertion that the evidence isn't reasonable.

Show threaddoneSep 21, 2024
@isaackuo @Leuenberg @nullagent @volcano @sundogplanets I’m assuming that fallacy was unintentional, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance . These are “hypothetical” negative outcomes, yes, but they are extrapolations based on known science. E.g.: 1. https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/fee.2624 2. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/20530196241255088 . Skepticism is healthy, but if you can only be convinced by seeing a depleted ozone and damaged ecosystems, I cannot afford to humour you.
Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

Show threadCySep 18, 2024
They're stuck in orbit until they break up and fall to the earth. I think they can deliberately be dropped unsafely back to earth, while they're still functioning. @[email protected] has a great story about how parts of their booster rockets have been landing in farms and stuff. (They're supposed to burn up in reentry.)
Show threadOlsonSep 29, 2024
@cy @sundogplanets Such as the farm in Saskatchewan which received a gift of space junk.
Show threadCySep 30, 2024
Yes, @[email protected] is the one who's been telling that story. She's an astronomy (professor, I think?) in Saskatchewan, who raises the cutest goats!
Show threadBruce Heerssen Sep 18, 2024
@volcano @sundogplanets
Generally speaking, satellites of this type are in Low Earth Orbit, and their orbits will degrade over time and they will fall back to Earth. At that point, they will break up in the atmosphere, vaporizing harmful chemicals into the upper atmosphere.
Show threadathlete4Sep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets how is it possible that a private company allowed to do this? are there no international bodies responsible for regulating space projects?
Show threadQuark MakerSep 18, 2024

@athlete4 @sundogplanets Back during the era when the international community was writing the Outer Space Treaty and other laws (the 1960s, that is) there was no concept of individuals building and launching their own rockets. As I understand it (someone here correct me if I'm wrong) the laws on the books pretty much just target nation states, not individuals.

Moreover, it's one thing to have a law; it's another thing entirely to be able to enforce it.

Show threadQuark MakerSep 18, 2024
@athlete4 @sundogplanets For example, no nation is allowed to claim any other celestial object, in whole or in part, as their own. Therefore, as an example, the Moon legally doesn't belong to anybody. However, if someone built and flew their own rockets and went to the Moon, started digging around, and built houses (metaphorically speaking) it's not like the U.S. or anyone else could stop them.
Show threadathlete4Sep 18, 2024
@QuarkMaker @sundogplanets oh interesting, thanks for the insight!
Show threaddoneSep 18, 2024
@QuarkMaker @athlete4 @sundogplanets hot new retail market for corporate investors coming up 👍. Titles for moon properties will be an NFT, I called it first here 😂
Show threadJohn MastodonSep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets That's the problem with those who lack scientific background, they're destroying the planet for a profit. They need to be stopped by the scientific community!
Show threadKernicSep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets also they help the Chinese to track down stealth fighters…
Show threadderptronSep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets Don't they rely on GPS to not collide or is that all laser targeting? Their dish probably wouldn't be able to find one accurately... They should be concerned about this themselves I would think.
Show threadEveryday.Human DerekSep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets I copied the link to your post and posting a link on other socials to bring more attention to the issue.
Cheers
☺️
Show threadxs4me2Sep 18, 2024

@sundogplanets

Time for a big hoover to pick them and a huge amount of debri out of the sky…

Show threadCySep 18, 2024

Show threadJokSep 18, 2024

@sundogplanets I don't have a degree in astrophysics, but I'm trying to understand your point of view better regarding Starlink's impact (I'm a Starlink user in rural France with poor DSL alternative). You mentioned that it could get so bad that radio astronomers might not even be able to use quasars to calibrate GPS anymore.

From what I understand, quasars are used in techniques like Delta-DOR to correct for errors in spacecraft navigation, relying on the precise positions of these objects. But I'm curious—are you saying that the radio interference from Starlink satellites could eventually become so severe that it would make these kinds of calibrations unreliable?

If so, what specifically about Starlink's radio emissions makes this scenario a real possibility? Are there frequency overlaps or specific effects that would make this issue hard to mitigate with current technology?

I appreciate any insights, as I'm trying to responsibly wrap my head around how this interference could affect something as fundamental as GPS synchronization using quasars.

Show threadCySep 18, 2024
To triangulate via GPS, you first must know where the GPS satellites are. They are geosynchronous, but they do drift, so need recalibrating. The article @[email protected] shared is about how to find the location of something in space.

https://www.universetoday.com/105160/navigating-the-cosmos-by-quasar/

It's something called Delta-Differential One-Way Ranging which if I understand it, is fancy talk for triangulating the satellite's transmission with the light from a quasar, from two widely spaced points on Earth. It's a very precise, but very delicate measurement over a very long distance, so radio waves can mess it up. The article doesn't say how. I think some quasars can only be detected with radio telescopes, maybe?

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy4dnr8zemgo
Navigating the Cosmos by Quasar

50 million light-years away a quasar resides in the hub of galaxy NGC 4438, an incredibly bright source of light and radiation that’s the result of a supermassive black hole actively feeding on nearby gas and dust (and pretty much anything else that ventures too closely.) Shining with the energy of 1,000 Milky Ways, this … Continue reading "Navigating the Cosmos by Quasar"

Universe Today
Show threadNiniSep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets These satellites are going to close us off from outer space, if they don't get us a Kessler event they'll blot out the sky with their noise.
Show threadChris JohnsonSep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets Late stage capitalism for the “win”.
Show threadkaspaSep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets It's okay, I'm sure Elon will provide us GPS. /s
Show threada fading echoSep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets I expect one can see quasars from above Starlink.
Show threadafxSep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets Is there anything that Musk touches which is not utter shite?
Show threadMartin PallmannSep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets he should be forced to take them down.
Show threadDr. Dek 👨‍🚀🐧🚀 )Sep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets
Aren't GPS satellites on a higher altitude than starlink? Hopefully that makes it safer.
Show threadSparkySep 18, 2024

@sundogplanets It's almost like we shouldn't just let corporations blast any old shit into orbit. 🤔

And if there are checks: They evidently need to be more thorough.

Show threadEdelruth, PBS Passport HolderSep 18, 2024

@sundogplanets

I guess failure mode effects analysis is out of fashion, since apparently we are going to just wait and see whether we squeak by, or a worse case scenario actually happens.

Worse, because we have levels to catastrophe now.

Have to leave room at the top for 'worst'.

Show threadLudwig VielfrassSep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets this is a trick that many people miss that GPS is MUCH more than the satellites. It’s a technology that requires understanding both the Special and General Theories of Relativity and a vast constellation of quasars to be watched to be as precise as it is. The more you dig into it, the more complex it gets. It’s really remarkable.
Show threadKeelanSep 18, 2024
@lerxst @sundogplanets the fact that the clocks on board the GPS satellites have to be calibrated 38 ms per day slow on ground so that when they’re in orbit and subject to relativistic effects they will be running at the right speed is such a cool, practical example of relativity.
Show threadCosvakSep 18, 2024

@sundogplanets wait till he realizes he put to much trash in orbit to be able to leave Earth for his precious Mars.

What an asshole!

Show threadj5vSep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets I've wondered how much extra cost this incurs everywhere else, in order for Starlink to attempt to turn a selfish profit.
Show threadRhewSep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets
Oh, so they're the early generation Baofeng UV-5R s of the satellite world.
@odoben
Show threadBrian RepkoSep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets who regulates this? Can they force this to stop or take them down?
Show threadChris MillsSep 18, 2024
@sundogplanets I smell #hubris on the wind.