Daryl the AdminEvery time someone actually tries universal basic income, it works astoundingly well. Every time.
We should do something with that information.
You know, besides bury it.
deilann v -0.2.1. 
@djwfyi or form another committee
IronCladLou@djwfyi that info gets buried into the same hole as other proven facts like “every time we add another lane to a highway, traffic gets worse” 🙄
Someday, after the billionaires are gone, we’ll sift through that landfill of inconvenient-to-them ideas and build an amazing world
Someday, after the billionaires are gone, we’ll sift through that landfill of inconvenient-to-them ideas and build an amazing world
Ian LanghamPaying workers a living wage increases morale and productivity.
Diversity makes for a better and more productive work environment.
There's actual science on all of this.
Yup...
mathew@Langhamian @ironcladlou @djwfyi My "favorite" buried knowledge is that the most effective and cheapest way to deal with the problem of homelessness is to give people homes.
The second most effective is to just hand them money.
But no, we have to go the most expensive route *and* make the situation worse, because reasons.
vascorsd@lpar @Langhamian @ironcladlou @djwfyi most people are allergic to the concept of giving others something they had to suffer to get themselves under the unfair system that brainwashed them that it had to be that way. Kinda of a double down since they are invested in the system.
Nearly Normal (=>÷)@lpar @Langhamian @ironcladlou @djwfyi
Here in Australia the choices are less complex.
The number of homeless people is less than the number of vacant dwellings.
Our fearless leaders always go for building programs, though because this is a way of further enriching the already wealthy.
Many of these leaders are also wealthy property investors.
I'm beginning to see a trend.
Juan Per¢ent,🇲🇽 🍉,🇻🇪
🚲@djwfyi Interesting. Have we considered trying a small trial to test its effect? We could consider ending it prematurely before the planned conclusion of the experiment, too.
Marty Fouts@djwfyi To be pedantic, nobody has tried UBI AFAIK. The experiments that have worked very well always tested with a small subset of the population.
Clearly it is now time to scale the experiment up and truly try *universal* or at least everyone in a large test area.
The Great Llama 
@MartyFouts @djwfyi
Honestly, what we did during covid was large scale enough to prove the point in my opinion.
Honestly, what we did during covid was large scale enough to prove the point in my opinion.
Log 🪵@djwfyi One of the critical features is that the scale of the study means the landlords and other rentiers are unaware the subjects of the study are receiving additional income.
If *everybody* gets it, the parasites *will* know. The program must necessarily include direct provision of goods and services that may ordinarily be used to hollow out someone else's personal spending power. Housing, food, and communications services need to be part of it, not just cash.
Paul Lalonde
Cy@djwfyi
We can't have things that work astoundingly well, THAT'S SOCIALISM!
(/s)
PirateRo@djwfyi we won’t have much of a choice. Automation can already create seas of unemployed.
You’re fooling yourself if you think otherwise. That number will only grow.
petros@djwfyi Evidence based politics.. one needs scientists, engineers and doctors in parliaments. Look what we have instead.
Wandering Star@djwfyi
SSI: *works*
Pilot program to help the homeless with cash: *works*
Program to get the unemployed off benefits by giving them cash: *works*
Social Security: *works*
It pretty much seems that anytime you just give money to people at an income level where they buy necessities and basic dignities, only good things happen.
Cassandrich@djwfyi They are doing something with that information: escalating fascism to prevent it. Because "working astoundingly well" is horrible news to them.
Laberpferd
Canadian Crone
Ralph058 (S/he/it) AF4EZ@djwfyi Every time we try a four day work week, we get more work out of people than with a five day...they should do something with that information
Inky TartarsTrue to form, our previously reactionary government decided to legislate the evidence away. Like legislating that, against all the objective evidence, Rwanda is "safe" for the purposes of exporting refugees and asylum seekers.
Zan@djwfyi the definition of insanity, people keep trying to prove it will have different results
StarkRG@djwfyi "That could never work here," is the only argument opponents have, and it's bullshit.
arcayr@djwfyi but the status quo!
Patrick@djwfyi - they have been doing something about it. The GOP has been trying to outlaw it. Depending on how evil you think they are, this is because they think that the Democrats will get the credit (which is clearly true if they oppose it, but if they enact it, they can legitimately take the credit); or because their only principle is to increase the wealth of the wealthy.
https://www.businessinsider.com/basic-income-programs-politics-democrats-republicans-election-2024-3
LM Little@djwfyi True. IMHO that information needs to be communicated in ways that debunk neoliberalism and libertarianism as the only ideologies.
Rai Aren 🖖✨📚🇺🇦
nantucketlit@djwfyi I was reading in a Noah Smith column that in one UBI study, 2% of the recipients did not work. Smith suggested this was a huge indictment of UBI. That felt like hyperbole to me, what have other people said about it? (assuming the number is even accurate)
Oblomov@nantucketebooks @djwfyi the answer would be «as opposed to without the UBI where upwards of 3% ON A GOOD DAY can't find work?»
Harald Wagener@nantucketebooks these studies also usually come with a narrow definition of what constitutes work. When Switzerland had the vote about UBI, a Swiss friend they would vote against it because they knew they'd immediately quit their job because of their shitty job and rather spend time being a professional musician. They didn't understand my follow up question how that would be a bad outcome @djwfyi
🇳🇿 
💉*9 Roger@djwfyi where I live (Aotearoa New Zealand) we used to have a regular payment for each child, it went to the mother by default, and it was fairly generous. Some small families lived on that alone (though frugally). They let it wither & die in the 70s I think. We also have a non contributary state pension. Everyone over 65 gets it and as long as you have a house it is easy to live on modestly. It isn't called a UBI but it feels like one and as a 'trial' of the concept it's huge.
@rogerparkinson @djwfyi We have a similar, Universal non contributory pension for over 65s in Mexico. Not enough to live on, but great for autonomy and infusion of cash into local economies. Tinkering now with regular money for students and soon for single mothers.
Those and significant raises in minimum wage have contributed to millions exiting poverty.
But policy has to lead also, if not, I'm not certain of the difference between UBI and throwing money at social issues and inequality.
Those and significant raises in minimum wage have contributed to millions exiting poverty.
But policy has to lead also, if not, I'm not certain of the difference between UBI and throwing money at social issues and inequality.
WooShell@djwfyi Every time someone actually tries UBI, it's for a very small community under parameters tuned for exactly that community. And you want to deduct the viability for a whole country from that?!
A number that lets you live acceptably in one part of the country, won't even rent you a tiny flat in another part of the country.
Any UBI higher than a reasonable working salary in your surrounding countries is going to flood you with immigrants.
It just doesn't work once you try to scale it up.
A number that lets you live acceptably in one part of the country, won't even rent you a tiny flat in another part of the country.
Any UBI higher than a reasonable working salary in your surrounding countries is going to flood you with immigrants.
It just doesn't work once you try to scale it up.
Bruce_Ak@djwfyi - well once AI and Robots replace most forms of manufacture and creativity it will be a necessity not a nice option
But will governments just print free money or what ? (Taxing such production will see it mostly moving somewhere than doesn’t.. )
How will new Robots be funded ?
Not convinced this utopia is sustainable in our current societal model ..
CyberFrog
Stephan Burlot
Timo Grün@djwfyi
It works when it works, but that means without the unintended consequences. Example: UBI will generally not be enough to live on on its own. So, additional jobs. Employers:“Hey, you already have UBI, so we don’t need to pay minimum wage any more.” And if you don’t prevent that you will have everyone on full tiime, sub-minimum wage MacJobs again, effectively getting the same minimum wage as before. And that’s not even capitalism — it’s just people being their normal shitty selves.
It works when it works, but that means without the unintended consequences. Example: UBI will generally not be enough to live on on its own. So, additional jobs. Employers:“Hey, you already have UBI, so we don’t need to pay minimum wage any more.” And if you don’t prevent that you will have everyone on full tiime, sub-minimum wage MacJobs again, effectively getting the same minimum wage as before. And that’s not even capitalism — it’s just people being their normal shitty selves.
Jfrench@djwfyi that something will likely be "never try it again"
Stoneface Vimes
Inga stands with 🇺🇦 🇵🇸@djwfyi maybe we should try and test it one more time and then spend years analyzing the results of that trial and coming to conclusions
FollicleMite@djwfyi Plus of course, a trial is by definition not universal. The effect will be exponentially more dramatic at larger scales.
Mike Taylor 🦕@djwfyi I'm interested in UBI and have seen a lot of positive studies. Are there others where it's been tried and NOT worked well?
DJGummikuh@djwfyi ask our government in Germany, the lessons to learn from this is to cut on social expenses so those lazy slobs have an incentive to work. Just like these politicians, who get paid no matter what and mostly never really worked a day in their life 👍
Eli the BeardedAt scale I cannot believe it will do anything but cause rents to go up and landlords to get richer.
Ansgar Frej@djwfyi Absolutely. These trials have been run repeatedly, with similar results every time. The whole concept of states as ‘laboratories of democracy’ to try out different laws and policies is a good one. But if they're not going to follow through with, then, enacting those best practices at a larger level, wtf was the point of the trial? 🤷🏽♂️🤬