Gentle GolemJul 17, 2024

On the topic of, out of the blue, discussing your children's belief in Santa Clause with a stranger (me):

I (now) understand that culturally this was used as an indicator of the maturity of the children, and that this interaction is, culturally, normal.

But as an outsider, it's kinda weird, right?

There was obviously sub-communication behind the statement that I missed. She was using body language to convey her meaning, and I was a blind man unable to see.

To someone who picked up the intended meaning, it would be normal, but without that, it's objectively weird, right?

"My child believes that a mythical figure is real" is not something I would expect to learn after knowing someone for less than 2 hours.

1/

Show threadGentle Golem

But, to be real here, the reason I made the post in the first place was because it was very uncomfortable for me.

Basically, it made me feel very much "othered" and I didn't like it.

It wasn't intentional, but it WAS something that put me on the outside and reminded that I don't fully fit in or belong.

2/

Jul 17, 2024 at 5:49pmWeb
Show threadGentle GolemJul 17, 2024

I thought sharing the experience with other Jews might help dissipate the "otherness" of the experience.

We could laugh at how silly it is, and the feeling would dissipate.

3/3

Show threadTerryBJul 17, 2024
@noharmpun You don't have a bio. But do we take it that you didn't grow up in a Christian majority location, or one exposed to those assumptions.We have a running joke (we're not alone in this) that as soon as the retailer's shelves are emptied of Easter eggs they'll be filling with Christmas gifts/Hallowe'en stuff. And vice versa.
Show threadGentle GolemJul 17, 2024

@terryb No, I grew up in a heavily Christian majority location. The stuff was all around me, but I/we just avoided it as much I/we could.

Private Jewish/Hebrew school, etc.

I dated a Shiksa in high school. I helped decorate a tree once. Opened presents.

Honestly, I knew that "my kid still believes" in Christmas means "my kid is still innocent". That isn't the part I had a problem with. But I'm convinced even that was not the full communication. I definitely missed part of what was intended.

It's the how and why and where and when and awkwardness of it.

I have been othered all my life, and have kept myself othered, but this was a new one for me, and it was uncomfortable.

Show threadCali SperaJul 17, 2024

@noharmpun @terryb

I'm sorry you felt that way

I want to offer my goysche perspective on this

The walk of life of your children has an existential meaning

Because it represents the continuity of your tribe

But it also involves you as a parent on a very personal level

Subjectively, it's the biggest investment of your life

It's not only about the tribe. It's about you personally, the meaning of your life

This woman has shared with you something intimate, deeply meaningful

That's a gesture of acknowledgment, of trust

She felt you did belong

I suspect she did so because you're a father on your own

So she assumed you could relate to the investment of fatherhood

The intent was not, I think, to remark that you don't share this meaning

I think it was the opposite

Maybe she was a bit clumsy in not considering possible cultural differences

That usually happens out of ignorance/provincialism

My 2 cents

Show threadGentle GolemJul 17, 2024

@calispera

She obviously didn't hold any ill-will or mean harm. I'm sorry if I implied that she did.

Show threadTerryBJul 17, 2024
@noharmpun Maybe. But the impact of Christmas isn't to be underestimated in families that set have set foot in church less often than I have (I've accompanied school kids to church for various visits*). And as a teacher, in August I'm aware that Christmas is just the end of the next term.
*For example-One of the schools I used to support was on a Catholic campus with an enormous church next door. I sometimes went there with their kids, if a visit coincided with my slot. (Funnily enough...I retired a decade ago. The school is now closed, but the frum Jewish school where I sometimes do some post-retirement work needed more space. Last year I found myself revisiting it. )
Show threadJeremy (יעקב) 🇺🇦Jul 17, 2024

@terryb @noharmpun

The idea that being Christian is defined as attending Church or believing in Jesus is definitely the Christian position.

But it's not something that really maps onto others, treating Christian and American and white as the cultural default. This view of Santa, Christmas, etc does not exist the same in even highly religious European countries, Black communities, and (obviously) non-Christians. We talk about Judaism having cultural elements, but we would say the same about Muslims, for example. Hinduism...

This idea that Christians shed all Christian elements when they stop believing in Jesus, going to church only works if we imagine they unlearn all Christian cultural elements such as this particular view of Santa and Christmas, heaven and hell, etc

We know that's not true; the cultural elements still set them apart from those other groups. Call it cultural Christianity, atheist Christians, or whatever, but what remains is not divorced from Christianity.

Show threadlittlemiao Jul 17, 2024

@noharmpun The whole cultural institution of Santa will never stop being weird to me. I never had any peers who “believed in” Santa. I think that is part of it.

Also, why would a parent be talking about Christmas now? Isn’t it kind of the wrong time of year for that?

Kind of tangential, but my earliest Christmas-related memory is learning the Jingle bells Batman smells song from my brother. I was four.

Show threadJeremy (יעקב) 🇺🇦Jul 17, 2024

@littlemiao @noharmpun

Oh wow, I swear I sang that song all the time, definitely more often than the "real" version.

And yes, Golem, it is weird how it is like 3 layers deep on cultural assumptions.

FWIW, what you were describing here is how it feels to be autistic where we have to unpack, exactly like you were doing here, multiple parts of every interaction to figure out which assumptions went into it so that we can understand what was said to me and how we can effectively respond in a way that they'll understand. It can feel like you're talking an entirely different language.

Fortunately, it means when we learn to mask well, we can help others in interpreting when they get lost.

#ActuallyAutistic #Autistic #Autism #Communication #Neurodivergent